|
Post by stefan on Nov 4, 2010 17:58:59 GMT -1
Hi to all,
I have looked over the site before posting my concerns about the health of our trees and the thread does not appear to have been discussed under its own subject title? Please forgive me if I'm wrong or if this is something obvious you are all well aware of and perhaps sharing your thoughts elsewhere on this site at this very minute.
I have been aware of our trees dying for more than 15 years now. This year I have been horrified by what appears to be a sudden escalation in the numbers of trees ether dead or in a state of rapid death with whole chunks of their canopy completely dead. It seems to be occurring to every age of tree and every species. Whenever I speak to people about it they give me a blank look and a disinterested reply. Like I said, this year there seems to be a very visable increase.
So I googled 'dying trees' and the situation in America appears very grim indeed, it appears far worse than over here. There are a numbers of sites providing some very worrying details. Without wanting to sound melodramatic it appears something is happening and the bio system seems to be collapsing faster than I dared to imagine. Kew Gardens states that our trees are officially stressed. You will of course know about the horse chestnuts this year and sudden oak death etc. Well I'm talking about something else entirely which seems to be associated to climate change. Once you get your eye in it becomes very disturbing, all I seem to have noticed this year has been the dead and dying trees spoiling my ventures into the countryside. No matter how beautiful the landscape, its the dead trees I notice.
Ironically I'm also reading 'The Road' at the moment by Cormac McCarthy.
A pretty crap way of breaking my long term silence I know but I thought it was 'SOMETHING IMPORTANT' to share.
Stefan
|
|
|
Post by dreamguardian on Nov 4, 2010 21:53:29 GMT -1
Thanks Stefan, I've noticed it too and have grown used to the general apathy about the natural world as well as most things.
|
|
|
Post by potia on Nov 5, 2010 8:29:40 GMT -1
It's not something I have noticed in the trees around me but then I live in a city but there was something in the news the other day about this very issue.
|
|
|
Post by Adam on Nov 6, 2010 13:56:54 GMT -1
I'm going to come across like a complete nork and say that I hadn't noticed or been made aware of it. I was aware of the disease afflicting Horse Chestnut trees and sudden oak death, but not the broader picture you paint. Do you have any references to the Kew statement and the state of trees in relation to this in the UK?
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 6, 2010 17:05:49 GMT -1
i have certainly noticed the horse chestnuts getting done over by the leaf miner moths, but hadnt noticed anything else.
can climate change really be to blame? i mean it isnt as if temperatures are beyond anything else we have known and for a prolonged period - its more of a gradual change with CC, a slow but steady thing and at present we are probably within the boundaries of past climates; we have had colder, we have had hotter and we have had drier before now.
|
|
|
Post by potia on Nov 6, 2010 20:06:35 GMT -1
I think there's also something to do with global trade and more pests and diseases coming in as well as the climate change allowing things to survive that may not have done before.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 7, 2010 17:21:28 GMT -1
The main information I have is off the net, there is a truly quite heart breaking site bluntly called, American Trees are Dying. This site is very well written with lots of references to scientists, biologists etc. It paints a very grim picture indeed, one that is happening right now, not at some distant future beyond our lifetime. Jaw droping statements like 80% of the pines in British Columbia will be dead by 2013. The Maples in North America have been devasted.
There is another aritcle about Kew Gardens, talking about British trees really struggling, especially Beech, Oak and Ash. Next spring/summer go for a drive and just look around, its there for the eye to see.
Apparently its mild winters combined with various diseases.
What I have seen this year is very worrying indeed. I think at this pace, within 3 years the effects will start to impact on human life style. I know this is a pretty bold statement to make and one I do not make lightly. I hope I'm wrong but my gut feeling tells me otherwise.
Stefan
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 7, 2010 20:03:47 GMT -1
I've got a hell of a cold so don't have the umph to go in to all the details but you're quite right Stefan - there is going to be a very noticeable change over the next 5 years in UK.
The problem is newly evolved diseases - hybrids of older ones moved from all corners of the globe by the garden trade.
They aren't all connected and climate change isn't a major factor.
The main UK ones are from the same family of fungi that caused the Irish potato famine - phytophthora.
I think we are going to see Larch disappear from our upland landscapes over the next decade. Already in Wales you can no longer plant Larch as part of a tree planting grant scheme. The evidence is so strong that it's pretty much curtains for larch that planting it is considered a waste of public money. The trouble is this particular phytophthora behaves differently on Larch in a way that makes it more dangerous to many native broadleaved tree species...
The good news is that viruses evolve relatively quickly that weaken these fungi and in time 30-40 years typically trees become able to tolerate them and the tree populations begin to recover.
This isn't the canary on our environment - it isn't the result of biosystems collapsing. It's a very specific set of circumstances that could have happened even if we had a pristine planet with no pollution and a world population of just 100 - who all happened to be keen gardeners and transcontinentally swapped plants with each other (more specifically they also swap pots of soil containing fungi that the plants live in).
I'm very conservation driven - it's the focus of my life - but I wouldn't want this to be presented as a result of the more systemic ecological problems the globe is facing. The green movement has done itself no favours by its past misdemeanours of dishonesty when something very ecologically visible to the general public can be evidence of something it isn't.
The Horse chestnut problem in the UK is a very different issue. Horse chestnut isn't native and hasn't been in the UK in large numbers for long. The disease is caused by a very small moth that has naturally reached our shores and spread very quickly on the large numbers of horse chestnut now in the uk. It's a question of perspective. We have a new moth in the UK hooray! IT weakens horse chestnut but doesn't kill it unless the tree has other problems as well. Lots of horse chestnuts with the problem have been killed as the ignorant see them looking in poor condition - brown leaves in summer - think they're dying and so fell them before they think they could pose a risk.
I'm going on a bit now but if you have any questions Stefan just let me know.
Good to hear from you again!
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 7, 2010 20:07:39 GMT -1
I should also add that I'm absolutely gutted to the pit of my stomach about this. One area of Larch that I've worked with for the last 15 years that is very special to me - I will be devasted to see its loss...
And you're right Stefan very few people care... and for many it will be a great money making opportunity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2010 3:55:29 GMT -1
Here in the US, I think it's more of the "ignorance is bliss" frame of mind. I live in the Southeastern US, in a heavily forested state. Since I pay very close attention to the health of the woodlands, I'm seeing much of what you've pointed out here, but most people don't notice anything at all. As long as there is something alive, they seem to think everything is fine. Unfortunately the things that are thriving tend to be invasive species or escaped ornamentals. For any in the US that would like a good resource for following what is happening on a more regional level, check out this site: threatsummary.forestthreats.orgWe've actually had a wonderful year for conservation here in Tennessee with a couple of huge land tracts now newly protected and an elk herd firmly established on the Cumberland Plateau. I can only hope that these few victories are enough to get people's attention and help both our homes weather the environmental storms ahead. Especially now, considering how politics in both countries appears to favor going in the opposite direction.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 8, 2010 20:32:13 GMT -1
Thanks Francis.
I'm not pretending to be an expert, just sharing my observations. A terrible number of oaks and ash are dying here in Leicestershire. Get swaths of hedgerow are also dead or dying suggesting a varied collection of species, elder are definitely being hit hard.
You seem to be painting an optimistic picture for the long term future, I sincerely hope your right. I think watching The Road and then reading the book made me start thinking in apocalyptic terms after this years sudden escalation in dead trees. The various web sites seemed to confirm my fears about things collapsing sooner than later but you seem a bit more optimistic which is really good to hear.
Nevertheless groves we consider sacred will soon be under threat and that will break my heart.
It seems America is in a really bad way too and I almost fell off the floor about the scale of dying pines in Canada. We are indeed facing some challenging times ahead.
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 8, 2010 21:24:05 GMT -1
I'm not pretending to be an expert, just sharing my observations. A terrible number of oaks and ash are dying here in Leicestershire. Get swaths of hedgerow are also dead or dying suggesting a varied collection of species, elder are definitely being hit hard. That's the unfortunate thing about these phtophthoras - they have a very wide range of host species. You seem to be painting an optimistic picture for the long term future, I sincerely hope your right. I think watching The Road and then reading the book made me start thinking in apocalyptic terms after this years sudden escalation in dead trees. The various web sites seemed to confirm my fears about things collapsing sooner than later but you seem a bit more optimistic which is really good to hear. This is one of those things where you have to look at the ecological history of trees. They have "plagues" that all but destroy a species of tree, but after time they start to recover. Chestnut blight in America changed the ecology of temperate deciduous woodland there - the fungus changed the nature of chestnut from being a dominant forest canopy tree to a short lived bush. However the fungus itself now plays host to a range of newly evolved bacteria and viruses that weaken it and reduce it's negative effects on chestnut. Chestnuts are starting to grow back into the canopy of the forest in some areas, and in time it will superficially appear as if nothing ever happened. Elms in europe have repeatedly been all but 'lost' as large trees - the landscape changed hugely for a while, only for them to recover. Nevertheless groves we consider sacred will soon be under threat and that will break my heart. Yes - there's no escaping that fact. And just as vanishingly few of the latest generation of pagans have ever stood in a grove of old, or even mature "English" Elm, after Dutch Elm Disease worked its menace through our woods and hedgerows, perhaps only a few of the next generation of British pagans will have the opportunity to stand within mature groves of many of the species that are currently still common. (The situation with elm is complex, if you want details let me know, but the essence of what I suggest above is not contradicted by the complete elm story) It seems America is in a really bad way too and I almost fell off the floor about the scale of dying pines in Canada. We are indeed facing some challenging times ahead. True too - particularly Sugar/Mountain Pines. Our own pines also have a new threat with Red Band Needle Blight. This new disease only became a problem in Britain three or four years ago, but almost all the commonly planted pines here are susceptible - particularly Corsican Pine which is one of the commonest plantation pines in the South. The Problem with Red Pine Needle Blight is so bad that it's presence has to be declared by anyone selling woodland that it's found in. One of only three diseases that have to be declared - all three of which have arisen in the last 5-6 years. Fortunately, so far, our native Scots pine is much less susceptible. Of course if new disease keep arising then it's hard to see recovery from multiple set backs. However we have now had an intense period of moving plants (and their hitchhiking pests) around the globe and bringing fungi together allowing them to hybridise. Arguably we are now beyond the peak of novel permutations of contact - hopefully although we are going to see a heartbreaking rise in the effects of these new diseases, we are likely to see a reduction in the number of new tree diseases arising.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 8, 2010 22:02:49 GMT -1
my respect to you Francis, you really seem to know your stuff. I feel I have been informed a hell of a lot in just a few postings.
So from what you say it looks like very bad news but not the end of the world that some people are suggesting or predicting. Dead trees creating more pollution and speeding up the problem etc?
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 8, 2010 23:46:45 GMT -1
my respect to you Francis, you really seem to know your stuff. I feel I have been informed a hell of a lot in just a few postings. Thank you - that's very generous of you. So from what you say it looks like very bad news but not the end of the world that some people are suggesting or predicting. Yes my opinion is that in the 'short term' (from the perspective of woodland in Britain) that is the next half century or so, it's going to be upsetting to those humans who love the woods of Britain the way they are and have been for the last 200 years or so (which again from the perspective of the woods themselves is a relatively short time). Dead trees creating more pollution and speeding up the problem etc? Not really. The thing with Larch is that it makes a much better host for the phytophthora than beech, oak etc.. On most of our native trees it can grow and does cause problems, but the chemistry of their metabolism isn't ideal and it's rarely able to reproduce by producing spores. Up until now oak to oak transmission for example requires a bit of the fungus to be transported from one tree to another - i.e. a tiny piece of mud containing some fungus, or a few cells on a birds foot or a dog or person etc. On Larch however things are different the fungus is able to produce absolutely vast amounts of spores which can travel in the air. In the past then even if the new phytophthora got into a wood it spread very slowly from tree to tree - a little bit of the fungus having to be physically carried from an infected tree to the next. And even when that happened it wouldn't often lead to a successful infection. Vegetative reproduction is like growing plants from cuttings - it's not what many plants have evolved to do. Now when a larch gets infected vast numbers of spores are produced that are carried on the breeze and can infect many trees of many different species..... And spores are evolved to initiate new infections...
|
|
|
Post by arth_frown on Nov 9, 2010 18:00:54 GMT -1
I've notice some rotten heartwood in a few of the Spruce I've felled this year. I've never come across before. It was a very wet winter last year, so that might have something to do with it.
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Nov 12, 2010 17:17:41 GMT -1
I would just like to say to everyone here at Brython that I am so very grateful for being able to access this forum. What Francis has been able to confirm for me is absolutely critical. I cannot stress that enough.
His knowledge has confirmed what I have been observing but was unable to evidence. Namely that our trees are dying on a massive scale right now and that scale will increase of immediately, becoming far more visible next year. What the outcome of this will be I have no idea? Francis is able to be quite pragmatic about it. I on the other hand shift between a sense of grieving and shitting myself for the future.
However there is no point in burying my head in the sand, if the shit is about to hit the fan in the next few years it's better to know about it than be caught by surprise. If I understand you right Francis were gonna be OK without trees? I hope your right but I'm so afraid thats not the case?
Stefan
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 12, 2010 17:47:43 GMT -1
as horrible as the comign years may be, never forget it will only open up space for more trees to grow. they have been hanging about for a couple hundred million years - it will take more than disease to see them off.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 14:56:40 GMT -1
I work on a large plant nursery here in Western Canada and we have on it two different tree farms. On them we grow a lot of different varieties of trees. Now we are used to certain trees getting certain diseases or being attacked by bores or what have you. However, in the last couple of years there seems to be an increase in other trees getting "sick". Our russian olive trees got some disease that is still a mystery. Trees that normally don't get fire blight were dying by the hundreds to it. For me working with the trees is an honour, but it is heartbreaking to spend half my week with the loppers or a chainsaw killing them when we are in the business of making sure the world still has trees.
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 14, 2010 17:22:23 GMT -1
Francis is able to be quite pragmatic about it. I on the other hand shift between a sense of grieving and shitting myself for the future. Whilst I would love to have a pragmatic acceptance to the ecological change to our trees that is to come, as you suggest, the truth is I'm gutted. Really gutted. I wish I could more successfully follow the exhortation of the american realist Niebuhr - famous in popular culture for the saccharin but apt "serenity prayer"; God, grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can; And wisdom to know the difference. ........the fan in the next few years it's better to know about it than be caught by surprise. If I understand you right Francis were gonna be OK without trees? I hope your right but I'm so afraid thats not the case? As Lee points out we're Not going to be without trees. What is most likely to happen it that the life expectancy of trees will change. There will be a rapid and high turnover of individuals with tree populations. Older mature trees will die and the gaps these trees form will rapidly be filled with young trees. However these young trees will probably not live as long as currently we expect trees of their type to. There will be a shift in the demography of our tree populations with a great many young trees in our landscape but much fewer old mature ones. This is what has happened with "English Elm". (A different disease but a similar ecological pattern is likely to result and obviously I'm ignoring the surviving refuge in sussex and the different biology of Wych Elm). There are just as many English Elm as there ever were before "Dutch Elm Disease" but they are small young trees that do not go on to become mature large elms with large diameter trunks. Look in the hedgerows and elm is still there but no longer looking the way it did in the 1970s. When Elm reach a certain size they become susceptible to the disease, there is a sort of glass ceiling they can rarely grow beyond. We're not going to be "without trees", but for many species groves of mature large individuals may become increasingly rare. This is of huge significance in terms of the human relationship with trees, as for many fluffy pagans this relationship is very one dimensional, rooted only in ideas of the wise Old tree and all it's seen within it's longer-than-human lifetime.
|
|