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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2010 5:42:51 GMT -1
This is theological conjecture I admit but the forum title seems to suggest it's OK to go ahead with this. So here goes; Let's suppose the Gods exist. Let's suppose that the ancients had it right and that there are a race of beings that we can only refer to as Gods. It would follow then that as Gods they would know that they were going to be forgotten. They would be able to see the rise of the Abrahamic God that would all but wipe them from Human awareness. The Gods would also be able to foretell the time when, if enough of their awareness is kept alive then the time would come when people would again seek to turn to them. Given the original conjecture that the ancient Gods exist that seems fair enough so far, but the question is; What would they have done about it? How do you keep the ancient ways in the face of overwhelming enmity? How could the knowledge of the old Gods be restored when the time came around? So here is where I'm really asking for opinion. What if the Gods put all the wisdom and knowledge into stories. Tales and fables that contain within them hidden meanings and lessons that would withstand time and opposition because they are presented as nothing more than Tales. Is it possible that in these Myths and legends lies the secrets of the old Gods? Any comments?
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Post by Adam on Dec 14, 2010 8:45:27 GMT -1
You have to make one further assumption... that the Gods were prescient. While knowledge of the future is, under certain conditions, an aspect of the stories, I'm not sure we can conjecture that it was a given...
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 14, 2010 9:41:09 GMT -1
also the assumption that they would actually care about such things. Don't forget, the gods do what they want, in their own time. If your crops are failing, they don't magically jump up and save us. All we can do is plead with them to help. So maybe, just maybe, the fact that they have "disappeared from human awareness" suits them just fine, they can go about their business without a bunch of humans hassling them all the time (devils advocate)
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Post by Heron on Dec 14, 2010 11:39:56 GMT -1
We might consider that the gods grow out of our relationship with them, and if other gods are dominant the 'competition' for our affections indicates a shift in patterns of relationship. Nevertheless, as W P Ker once put it, 'The gods who are defeated consider that defeat no refutation'.
And of course, if they knew we weren't going to be around for that much longer .....
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 14, 2010 11:41:43 GMT -1
These hidden secrets aren't in the mabinogion, if thats what you mean. It's a great drive to seek out hidden & long lost secrets but it's impossible.
I'm with Teg, if the Gods want to speak to us, they will.
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Post by arth_frown on Dec 14, 2010 12:20:40 GMT -1
I doubt that there is any thing the myth and folklore can tell us. Stories are just that, stories. Everyone gets out of it what they want. I try to compare the secrets of the Gods as being educated. Once you have learnt to 'see' it you 'see' it all the time. (a bit like tracking, eh DG?) Of course this is all self learning. Archaeology can help, but is very limited.
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Post by Rion on Dec 14, 2010 13:35:40 GMT -1
It would be nice to think that the gods secretly encoded the essence of their knowledge in tales, but I don't give the idea much credence.
Do the gods care? I think as a group of people who gather online to share ideas on their worship we collectively like to think (hope!) that they care somewhat about us, but I often wonder just what a relationship with humans can do for a god. Why would they need it? One metaphor for the relationship between gods and men has stayed with me (paraphrased as I can't remember where I saw it and didn't write it down): 'the gods see men as men see cats - amusing to live with and needful of care, but ultimately devoid of purpose'.
Heron, that's an ominous note to end on!!
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Post by megli on Dec 14, 2010 13:38:08 GMT -1
Works both ways, that definition.
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Post by potia on Dec 14, 2010 14:31:32 GMT -1
And speaking as a cat lover who has been well trained by her cat to provide food, open doors and provide a warm lap on demand I quite like the idea of being like a cat to my gods
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2010 14:53:11 GMT -1
It seems the predominant view is that there are no ancient secrets in stories. That may be so, I would never hold my conjectures to be absolute. Neither do I think that everything can be found in stories. There is a lot to learn from the Earth itself, as Shakespeare put it "Tongues in trees, sermons in stones and books in running brooks." I like Teg's point, that the Gods may not be interested in what we do, however it raises the question, why were they interested in us in the past? and if then, why not now?
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Post by redraven on Dec 14, 2010 15:42:12 GMT -1
This is theological conjecture I admit but the forum title seems to suggest it's OK to go ahead with this. So here goes; Let's suppose the Gods exist. Let's suppose that the ancients had it right and that there are a race of beings that we can only refer to as Gods. It would follow then that as Gods they would know that they were going to be forgotten. Or maybe they knew their relevance would be only for defined times. They would be able to see the rise of the Abrahamic God that would all but wipe them from Human awareness. I don't believe that to be the case and is suggestive more of your own worldview point than reality. There are still places where the influence of the Abrahamic God is minimal. The Gods would also be able to foretell the time when, if enough of their awareness is kept alive then the time would come when people would again seek to turn to them. see my first comment. Given the original conjecture that the ancient Gods exist that seems fair enough so far, but the question is; What would they have done about it? How do you keep the ancient ways in the face of overwhelming enmity? How could the knowledge of the old Gods be restored when the time came around? That would be dependent if the "old knowledge" was still relevant. For example, I have knowledge of how to set the ignition points of an earlier style motor vehicle, but today's technology makes that knowledge redundant. Not bad, just not relevant. So here is where I'm really asking for opinion. What if the Gods put all the wisdom and knowledge into stories. Speaking personally, I would have great difficulty in accepting the sum of all knowledge was contained in such a restrictive medium sa the written word. Tales and fables that contain within them hidden meanings and lessons that would withstand time and opposition because they are presented as nothing more than Tales. Is it possible that in these Myths and legends lies the secrets of the old Gods? But hidden meanings that probably tell us more about the mindset of the people from whose time frame these works originated from, than any great all revealing universal truth. The decline of these Gods suggests to me that their relevance at this moment in time may be viewed by some as minimal, however, that is a long way from being irrelevant. As an individual, would you want to place yourself in a position of having to constantly interact with ever growing numbers of humans and deal with their physical and emotional insecurities? RR
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Post by crowman on Dec 14, 2010 16:24:03 GMT -1
In times gone by a pestilence or drought would have been viewed as the God's displeasure by our superstitious forebears, nowadays we are armed with the knowledge that its probably more to do with climate change or some mutation of a disease. Does this then infer that the Gods are no longer relevent as mans knowledge increases or does it indicate that the God's didnt/ dont actually exist in the first place and that life on earth is more akin to a game of chance in which we make our own luck. The Gods havent been worshipped or bargained with for favours as our ancestors would have done since the beginning of the 1st century yet the earth still spins, crops are still harvested and animals still provide us with food. Forgive me, im still learning but what is the point of us recognising the Brythonic Gods in the 21st century if they dont actually exist, arent actually interested in us or our belief or disbelief doesnt count for a tin of beans??
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2010 16:56:44 GMT -1
Redraven makes excellent points all worth discussing. Just one correction. perhaps I wasn't making it clear but in the context of this discussion the Gods that are all but wiped out by the Abrahamic God are the Gods of North West Europe. I wasn't referring to India or other parts of the world. Crowman! I can only answer your question from a personal viewpoint. I honour the ancient Gods because it fulfills a deep spiritual need in me. I do not do it for blessings, gain or gifts of "Magic" for me it's a way of life that I fine satisfying on a very deep level.
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Post by potia on Dec 14, 2010 17:03:19 GMT -1
I don't believe the gods are omnipotent or omnipresent so I don't think they could have left much in the way of hidden wisdom in tales. That's not to say you might not find wisdom within the tales but it could just as easily have got there via someone who was very observant or naturally wise than placed there via the gods somehow.
Some gods might not be interested in us as a species and some might. I have relationships with beings that seem to be pretty general in liking human interactions and beings who seem to like a small number of people and the rest they can happily do without. This is very much UPG by the way.
The gods I do have relationships with do seem to grant me favours, sometimes ones I ask for, sometimes ones I don't explicitly ask for but desire anyway. At other times it feels like they say no for my own good or simply because they haven't heard me.
For me it's not about recognition but about relationship and we get many different things from our relationships.
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Post by crowman on Dec 14, 2010 17:14:19 GMT -1
I agree with both Potia (i double checked the spelling, sorry again) and Peter. I honour the Gods and Spirits of Place because they make sense to me. I'm not too worried if they havent been honoured for thousands of years. The connection I feel is very personal and very deep. Deep enough to have changed my whole point of view. I feel like it was they who grabbed my attention and showed me that even though we may have advanced and made huge gains in the past two thousand years as a species we're still only human. The natural world exists as testament to the fact that many of the Gods our ancestors worshipped are still weaving their magic on the landscape.
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 14, 2010 17:49:03 GMT -1
of course there is a glimmer of truth in old tales.. the old witch of the lake, the goblin at the crossroads, all allude to something very very ancient. Whether we can, or should, try to extract the ancient from the "tall tale", or just enjoy it for being a tall tale, depends on you personally. I find these old tales tremendously evocative, and can "part the veil" for me much quicker than almost anything else. Whether that is because I am "unlocking" something, or just entering the mindset of previous generations, I have no idea.
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Post by redraven on Dec 14, 2010 18:21:44 GMT -1
In times gone by a pestilence or drought would have been viewed as the God's displeasure by our superstitious forebears, nowadays we are armed with the knowledge that its probably more to do with climate change or some mutation of a disease. Does this then infer that the Gods are no longer relevent as mans knowledge increases or does it indicate that the God's didnt/ dont actually exist in the first place and that life on earth is more akin to a game of chance in which we make our own luck. Neither. It means that what they have to offer is dependent upon the level of our understanding. Just because a God hasn't been interacted with in hundreds or thousands of years doesn't negate their existence. Just like if I was to be transported into the future, my current skills may not provide me with the necessary tools to function. If you believe the Gods to be individuals, it is conceivable that their skills may be related to defined time spans. If you believe time to be linear (another discussion altogether!) The Gods havent been worshipped or bargained with for favours as our ancestors would have done since the beginning of the 1st century yet the earth still spins, crops are still harvested and animals still provide us with food. Forgive me, im still learning but what is the point of us recognising the Brythonic Gods in the 21st century if they dont actually exist, arent actually interested in us or our belief or disbelief doesnt count for a tin of beans?? So, for them to understand that we wish to interact with them, is it then necessary for us to revert to living in roundhouses and adopting primitive agricultural practices to better understand them? And where in my answers do I infer their non existence? RR
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Post by crowman on Dec 14, 2010 18:54:23 GMT -1
RR you didnt infer their non existence, i did. For me, your last post was the final jigsaw piece, so thanks. I think i was trying to alude to the fact that as a species we havent collectively worshipped them as our ancestors did and yet we're still here.... we havent died out. Yet as a group of people (Brython) we're still trying to figure out a way of connecting with them. Why? Up until a few weeks ago i never knew the existence of this group; and yet i still had thoughts of reconnecting with Gods and spirits of place. I arrived at this thought apparently by myself. I personally believe in their existence, yet my next door neighbour (whom i believe to be the last living Neanderthal) worships the great god of en-ger-land, thinks the spirit of place to be stella and wouldnt know the meaning of the word theological if it hit him over the head with poker... yet we're both living in the same street, affected by the same weather and should a pestilence or drought hit us would be affected in the same way. So I repeat my original line "what is the point of us recognising the Brythonic Gods in the 21st century?" My personal answer to this is because like Peter it gives me personal satisfaction on a very very deep level.
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Post by redraven on Dec 14, 2010 19:11:07 GMT -1
So I repeat my original line "what is the point of us recognising the Brythonic Gods in the 21st century?" Because they are, and continue to be, a dynamic force that animates on and through the land we live on. RR
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