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Post by littleraven on Jun 14, 2007 13:42:20 GMT -1
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Post by Francis on Jun 14, 2007 14:22:42 GMT -1
Sorry to expose you Stephen I didn't know our given names were to be secrets here ;D. You ask how I know yours and perhaps you already know mine also! We are very distantly related. My welsh roots are in the same Watkin family of Betws y Coed and the Machno valley as yours, with the same link to the Wyns of Gwydir and the Kyffins of Maenan. Is this perhaps why you dislike the YTT? With respect Olorin this seems a strange way to deliver this 'information' to me. You could have PMed me or mailed me privately- my e-mail was available in the members list. Most people in the Conwy Valley have a 'link' to the Wyns of Gwydir, Most of the families of Maenan claim a 'link' to the Kyffins. This is the nature of family webs, old stories, gossip and the small gene pool of North Wales- even smaller only a few generations back! I think you have a case of mistaken identity here as although my mother's family name is Watkin, they're from the Llanelwy/St. Aspah area not Betws. I would be interested to see the information you have though. Please feel free to contact me offline at Francis897@aol.com Why do you think 'this' would make me 'dislike' YTT? You've met my son and daughter already in Coed Dolgarrog Spring 2005 when they were travelling and working as conservation volunteers for the Countryside Concil for Wales. You caught squirrel for them and cooked it with pignuts and wildgarlic. they've talked about it many times you made a big impression. They hope to volunteer for C.C.W. again so maybe you will meet again. Perhaps you and I could get together soon? I remember a nice group of Australian students around then but no-one introduced themselves as family... I suppose I can guess which one was your son - as there was only one bloke, but I didn't realise he had his sister with him in the group. Stephen
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Post by littleraven on Jun 14, 2007 14:43:11 GMT -1
Indeed I prefer to think of as a gathering point. Certainly not a grove... I don't actually think druids are in the majority here. Ah, but what is a druid? And is it the same as what /was/ a druid? -- Jez - scop, rather than bard... A Druid today is like Spartacus: "I'm a Druid" "No, I'm a Druid" "Hey, I'm one of them" "I'm a Druid" etc. A guy I used to know once started a 'joke' group in Glasgow - the true esoteric teachings of Rasputin. He put posters up, with the major requirement being to bring a bottle of Vodka. About 30 people turned up. With Vodka. Actually interested in Rasputin. He had to say the teacher had been called back to Russia suddenly but they needed to keep an eye out for the posters (this was pre-interweb). Says it all really.
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Post by Francis on Jun 14, 2007 15:25:23 GMT -1
Ah, but what is a druid? And is it the same as what /was/ a druid? Well apparently according to the leading expert in the land on druids both contemporary and ancient, Ronald Hutton - one difference is that in the past Druids used to have as much influence on the world as Bobcat does today, although perhaps actually not quite as much influence as Bobcat does today. "By the end of the 1990s, Restall Orr was the most famous Druidess in the world; certainly the first since antiquity to occupy such an influential position and perhaps the first of all time. " (p197 of his latest book - again my italics) Sorry I just can't let this quote lie. Ronald Hutton does, for all his deserving-custard-pie-wearing smugness, have my respect. He's raised the bar for vigour in researching the origins of wicca and other paths- and authors will have less expectation that they can get away with writing pure fantasy as 'history' nowadays- so fair play to him for that. I don't think he's the sort of person to carelessly put a throw away remark into print. So he must believe the above. Do we conclude then that Pof. Hutton believes Druids in the past had relatively little influence on the population (battles, treatise, morale, fertility, decisions etc.) or that Bobcats influence may really be potentially unprecedented for a 'druid' ? Stephen
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Post by Craig on Jun 14, 2007 16:04:50 GMT -1
Hi all What a lot of replies! yes I know YTT is not well thought of by quite a few in Britain. Is that because a prophet is never well thought of in their own land I wonder? A prophet huh ;D Let's leave it with the YTT being somewhat controversial, mostly by their own hand it should be said. I'm a seer myself and I know that much of the work I do gives answers that seem like plain nonsense at the time - maybe they are but also maybe one day I will be able to see what they really mean. Really? Always wanted to meet one of them Craig you ask about Opal Wicca. Well in very brief explanation. I say this when my family arrived in Australia 6 generations ago ...snip...and will soon have an internet presence. An interesting history there. Personally I have had little truck with Wicca and really cannot comment. I have been cursed by a few though at various pub moots when I pointed out where the Imperial Wizards were wearing no clothes. Thanks also Craig for heading me to Kes at TDN. Have you found him there? I can't meet Arthur Pendragon this solstice as there is a rite I have to perform near Betws y Coed this solstice but I will meet him before I leave. I wouldn't worry about meeting Arthur, it is rarely impressive. By the way have you permission to perform a rite? Blessings,
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 14, 2007 18:23:26 GMT -1
Well, from the quote you gave, it would seem so, though it seems a ridiculous statement to me. Looking back at the sources, the druids were hugely influential... more akin to top civil servants than vicars in many cases. I don't consider myself a druid, as I perform none of the druidic functions. I'm not an advisor to government, not a scientist nor a priest. I don't intercede with the gods for the benefit of my community and I am a dunce when it comes to the legal system. No qualifiers there then What am I? Just a plain old polytheist... if I was transplanted back into antiquity and had a sex change, I imagine I could have been one of the harpers who traditionally accompanied the bards, but that's as far as I'm going...
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Post by littleraven on Jun 14, 2007 18:42:27 GMT -1
Shall we move the Hutton discussion to the thread in the Library titled after his book? It's quite a fruitful one I think.
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 14, 2007 19:00:04 GMT -1
Good thinking
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Post by olorin on Jun 20, 2007 10:36:11 GMT -1
I wouldn't worry about meeting Arthur, it is rarely impressive. By the way have you permission to perform a rite? Blessings, To me Sir, that sounds a rather disrespectful and dissmissive statement to make concerning such a well respected pagan leader who by his many actions has shown himself to be a true custodian of the environment of these Blessed Isles. Also his courage in the face of police brutality and the sacrifice he has made spending time that he could have used to increase the comfort and security of his lifestyle is the loudest song possible of how "impressive" this man is. Also who could I possibly need permission from. I am high priest of a group to whom these groves have been sacred for 100's of years. They have been in my dreams and waking visions since I was a small child. My bond with the groves though seperate in space is as deep as is imaginable. Olorin
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Post by olorin on Jun 20, 2007 10:37:56 GMT -1
This weekend I had the pleasure of walking bearfoot in the Oaken groves of Betws y Coed, sacred in my mind since my youth. I had also the pleasure of standing on the top pillars of Tryfan, the shark back mountain that has pulled me to these sacred shores. Communion in person for the first time with the spirits of these places was also a great joy to me and I thank Stephen for taking me to these places.
But I have to tell you here somethings that will be of interest to you. Stephen is No student of the occult. In my speaking to him of things all those beyond novice would know he was ignorant. Also he was not able to hear or see any of those spirits with whom I was communing. Nor has he any respect for that beyond his knowledge or understanding. His questioning of me having a hint of sarcasm about it, not respect or any hint of a desire for knowledge of what was beyond his ken.
When later rain and cloud came over us on Mount Tryfan he insisted we came down, breaking me out of trance and my deep communion with the Maen spirit of that mountain. Despite my explaining to him what was happening his insistance was total and I not knowing the way in low and misty cloud had no choice but to accompany him down.
It is with no pleasure that I say the above for I had looked forward to meeting him. I thank him for his generousity of spirit in guiding me to certain places in the physical realm but wonder if that generousity of spirit is of a christian not pagan kind...
Olorin
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Post by Craig on Jun 20, 2007 11:26:18 GMT -1
Hi Olorin, To me Sir, that sounds a rather disrespectful and dissmissive statement to make concerning such a well respected pagan leader ...snip... how "impressive" this man is. Good grief you really have no idea who you are talking about do you? Perhaps after he has been sick over your car and your shoes due to one of his binges you might be a little more cirumspect in your praise. Arthur is a complicated man, on one hand a brave chap who does support a number of environmental causes. On the other he can be a belligerent drunk, headstrong, wont to go off at a tangent anytime he chooses and generally cantankerous. Also who could I possibly need permission from. I am high priest of a group to whom these groves have been sacred for 100's of years. They have been in my dreams and waking visions since I was a small child. My bond with the groves though seperate in space is as deep as is imaginable. How about from the landowners for a start? The people who have managed and protected these woods for millenia. And then from the spirits of the woods themselves, maybe they don't want every Tom, Dick or Bruce performing ghod knows what rituals in their space? Acceptance by these requires first that you show respect. But I have to tell you here somethings that will be of interest to you. Stephen is No student of the occult. In my speaking to him of things all those beyond novice would know he was ignorant. Also he was not able to hear or see any of those spirits with whom I was communing. Nor has he any respect for that beyond his knowledge or understanding. His questioning of me having a hint of sarcasm about it, not respect or any hint of a desire for knowledge of what was beyond his ken. You ungrateful git. First you take a man's hospitality and then you defame him to his friends. What passes for honour in your world? Stephen has more ken of those lands than you will ever understand. When later rain and cloud came over us on Mount Tryfan he insisted we came down, breaking me out of trance and my deep communion with the Maen spirit of that mountain. Despite my explaining to him what was happening his insistance was total and I not knowing the way in low and misty cloud had no choice but to accompany him down. Excuse me? A man acts to save your life and you defame him again? The mountains of North and Mid Wales are killers, make no mistake about it. Every year ill-prepared and incautious travellers die up there from falls and most of all from exposure. You are starting to make me wish he had left you up there. It is with no pleasure that I say the above for I had looked forward to meeting him. I thank him for his generousity of spirit in guiding me to certain places in the physical realm but wonder if that generousity of spirit is of a christian not pagan kind... And that takes the biscuit. From 'Feral Druid Master' to 'Christian' in one short meeting. If this is the measure of your wisdom then you really do need help. Just don't ask me for it, for you will not be guided by me around the Mawddach now. I suggest you humbly retract what you have written and apologise to Stephen. You cannot imagine how you have lowered the respect we showed you when you arrived here.
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Post by arth_frown on Jun 20, 2007 11:38:17 GMT -1
Hi olorin
Stephen is a nice bloke and has always held out his hand if somebody needed help. Sadly you think other wise, this is not the right place to share your personal grievance with him. If you have something to say about him you should say it to him privately and not 'wash your dirty laundry in public'.
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Post by jez on Jun 20, 2007 13:10:36 GMT -1
His questioning of me having a hint of sarcasm about it Olorin Gosh, I wonder what could have come over him? Sarcasm, eh? Well, that must have been really difficult for you to cope with, what with you being a High Priest of all that ancient stuff, and him just a poor sod trying to help you out in a strange country, and not realising that in fact, you could have wandered all around the sacred Land of the Elders without him. In fact, I think you once said - obviously in error - that you didn't know where to go to find the Ancient Groves of your tradition? I must have mistaken what you meant... Oh, no, here it is... G'day to all I just joined the Caer Feddwyd Grove and am posting an introduction to myself as requested. My craftname is Olorin although I'm known by many names. I'm a high level initate of Opal Wicca. My home is near Broome in The Kimberely, Australia. I am going to be living in Wales, Britain for the next 5 months where I'm going to be learning Welsh at the Univeristy of Wales Bangor campus on the Superwlpan course. I've joined this grove on the advice of Dewin Fawr who tells me that some of the people I want to meet during my time in Wales are grove members here. First Ranger of the Ashdown Grove - My English roots are in the village of Fairwarp and I'm told that you know the Ashdown forest better than anyone. There are some places that are important in the stories of my family but there exact locations are lost to us now and I hoped that perhaps from a description of them you might recognise them? Also Master Feral Druids Craig Cartmell and Steven to learn of Feral Druidry and take it back to Australia where it is little known. Also I'm looking to spend this summer solstice in the Oak groves outside Betws-y-Coed sacred to Rhuddlwm Gawr, but I don't know their precise location and believe you might be able to show me? Also Little Raven, Kes and Arthur Pendragon. In return I can offer teaching of what I have learned over ten years dedicating my life to my craft. In anticipation of an exciting 5 months in the Greenest of Green Blessed Isles ;D Olorin And you with all that Opal Wicca stuff inside you, which must make it really really difficult to deal with poor mortals like Stephen, people who just deal with their own bit of the Nine Worlds to the best of their abilities... You offered us the fruits of your ten years of study. People were a little charitable when they failed to point out that ten years is a very short time, but I think that now is possibly the moment to say that to spend ten years without learning how to deal with receiving generous gifts from strangers would be pretty much impossible in the kindreds of those you have found here. Give generously, receive graciously. Well, Olorin the Opal Wiccan, I think you may find that your personal standards of hospitality and your notion of the duties of a guest are a little different from those of the founders of this site. It is, indeed, going to be an interesting 5 months. -- Jez
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Post by jez on Jun 20, 2007 13:15:36 GMT -1
..When later rain and cloud came over us on Mount Tryfan he insisted we came down, breaking me out of trance and my deep communion with the Maen spirit of that mountain. Despite my explaining to him what was happening his insistance was total and I not knowing the way in low and misty cloud had no choice but to accompany him down. It is with no pleasure that I say the above for I had looked forward to meeting him. I thank him for his generousity of spirit in guiding me to certain places in the physical realm but wonder if that generousity of spirit is of a christian not pagan kind... Olorin I agree, Craig. I would have left him there. Maybe Stephen /is/ too Christian for his own good... They have this thing about turning cheeks and giving people your cloak and walking with them the extra mile... Mind you, I /would/ have told the mountain rescue people, afterwards, when he had been missing a few days... -- Jez
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Post by Francis on Jun 20, 2007 14:01:57 GMT -1
I'm not sure how to reply to this really? Olorin I don't intend to answer all you've said or justify myself.
I introduced you to acquaintances of mine who welcomed you on to their land, and were happy to give you permission to camp and make a fire at a place you calimed was special to you - despite how strange your appearance and conversation was to them. I went back to check yesterday evening and cleared the mess you left. This embarrassed me greatly having been the one who introduced you to those people and that land. You say I wasn't prepared to learn from you well believe me you taught me plenty. There were places I'd decided to wait before taking you, which you will now miss
As for what happened on Tryfan you failed to mention that you had brought three students with you from Bangor. All were poorly clothed and inexperienced at walking in the mountains, and descending Tryfan (of all mountains) in the wet is not the easiest stroll for anybody. I wasn't prepared to put them at risk just so your show could go on. You will remember that you didn't find it easy yourself.
Stephen.
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Post by Craig on Jun 20, 2007 14:40:43 GMT -1
So Olorin, the facts seem to becoming clearer: 1. You claim to have ancient knowledge of a land that you have never been to, yet need close guidance to even find those sacred sites that have been revered by your tradition for over 100 years. 2. You ask us to help you, yet the first act you take after being guided and helped is to disrespect your guide in some sad attempt to curry favour with others here. Do you not think that we know the worth of our own? Stephen is highly respected for unlike your mere 10 years of study he has, like me, decades of experience on the land itself. 3. You disrespected the land by leaving a mess for others to clear up after you. 4. You disrepected the hospitality given to you freely by Stephen and others. 5. You would have put people in your care at risk by ignoring your native guide to the mountains. If he had not insisted that you accompany him down we might well be watching the Mountain Rescue bring more bodybags off Tryfan. 6. You have brought your own tradition into disrespect by your actions. How are we to consider future requests from Opal Wiccans now?
I find all this a sad reflection on your honour, your personal values and those obviously taught by your tradition. No person showing such low values could rise to prominence in a tradition unless the members and the tradition itself approved of them.
I expect that when you read this you will be angry. Perhaps before you allow your passions to rise you should review your actions over this last week and ask yourself how they have served you.
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Post by jez on Jun 20, 2007 15:04:49 GMT -1
I know Opal Wicca is too new to have a web presence, but maybe you could let me know why you have taken a Craft name which is in Quenya? Surely a Welsh name - or a Brythonic one from another of the ancient languages - would have been more appropriate? www.glyphweb.com/Arda/o/olorin.htmlUnless you really /are/ Gandalf? -- Jez - who was too polite to ask this before now
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Post by littleraven on Jun 20, 2007 15:57:59 GMT -1
You abuse Stephen's hospitality, then you have the audacity to come into this place and insult him to his clan?
You have broken the laws of hospitality.
You have no honour.
If I am unfortunate enough to meet you, the grass shall be blown in your face.
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Post by claer on Jun 20, 2007 17:15:04 GMT -1
I was appalled to read your post, Olorin. I'm afraid it shows you to be the ignorant one (and a lot of other negative traits too!) When later rain and cloud came over us on Mount Tryfan he insisted we came down, breaking me out of trance and my deep communion with the Maen spirit of that mountain. Despite my explaining to him what was happening his insistance was total and I not knowing the way in low and misty cloud had no choice but to accompany him down. I write as one, once foolish enough as a teenage student, to climb Tryfan not properly prepared. I set off in sunshine and later in the climb found myself in rain, wind and fog. I came down from that mountain with knees and hands bleeding. Tryfan taught me several important lessons that day that I won't easily forget; they were hard learnt. Be bloody well grateful indeed that you were with someone who did care enough to insist you that accompanied him down. I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if you had been left and you'd had to be rescued. Of course, there would have been a real chance you might not of made it off the mountain alive... Your lack of gratitude is astounding...sounds to me like you wasted a wonderful opportunity to get to know the area better.
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