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Post by arth_frown on Jun 20, 2007 19:12:06 GMT -1
Stephen
I hope that you are not put off helping others.
To olorin
You have insulted the land, the people and most likely insulted the spirits of place. By my standards a major taboo.
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Post by Francis on Jun 21, 2007 8:38:45 GMT -1
Dear Craig, Arth, Jez, Little Raven and Claer
Thank you for your confidence in me and your replies to Olorin's declaration of my faults.
I keep typing out big long replies to this, things I feel like saying but then I delete them before sending. As Arth says these things don't need to be said.
That you all saw things how they truly were from Olorin's own words makes me proud to be in your company here.
Blessings
Stephen
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Post by kris on Jun 21, 2007 10:03:31 GMT -1
I am apalled by this.
I have only just joined this forum and am shocked and horrified at the vilification and blatant attack on a dear, gentle, hospitable and deeply connected man!
Stephen gives freely with warmth and comapssion, anyone having walked through the woods with him could not help but feel his oneness with his surroundings. His connection goes beyond the insipidness and shallow "I'm better than you are" mentality that plagues neo-paganism.
I do not see enough of Stephen, even though he lives a mere fourty miles away (sorry Stephen!), I do however have respect, love and care for him and his family. To offend those we hold dear to our hearts and who serve the land in the manner that he does is deeply offensive.
Gwyboda' be rwyt ti wedi 'wneud. (May you know what you have done)
Kris
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Post by olorin on Jun 22, 2007 11:26:23 GMT -1
Well it seems I'm required to make an apology. But first I will say something of what has passed as I see it.
You say I left a mess, well sure I overslept having had a night of little sleep and many visions and so left quickly without time to clear up all my clacker. But I knew I was coming back for Alban Hefin then I'd have left the place pristine. But chance led me down to the West Country for a meeting with King Arthur after all. You say its tidy now so cheers for that- I've no wish to see those sacred groves despoiled.
Also I was told this was a place without cliques and petty politics or bitchcraft but those springing to Stephens or Francis (after the christain St. Francis) defense all seem to be friends of his and aren't taking notice of what I said. And 5 out of a membership of 147 doesn't leave me thinking that all here disagree with all my insights.
Also I was led to believe that this was a meeting place for those who were serious about their druidry or Craft. This Craft is my life. If people who after meeting me in body wish to follow me up a sacred mountain to witness my working and learn from me then thats their choice. I work outside they knew that. Also if people find that hard and get scared off as soon as it looks a bit dicey then thats just sorting the wheat from the chiff. Stephen broke my communion with the Maen Spirit of Tryfan and what he didn't know was that I'd already assured our safe passage down. Its Tryfan who chooses who gets down safely, it's arrogance of Stephen to think that the choices he makes are more powerful than a sacred mountain. But I do not now hold it against him he wished us well but he didn't Know nor look to increase his Knowing...
Next Your telling me ten years isn't much study. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was brought up in my craft my 10 years of deepest study was my training as Priest. That is what I offer.
As I'm warned to make an apology or be thrown out of this place. Then I do. I do not yet wish to leave. I am sure that myself and others here can learn from each other. I do not doubt his hospitality to a traveler, I do not find him failing in all things I never said that. Also its true I'd thought to learn from him. And in that I was disappointed but don't hold that against him. I own fully that that was my mistake not his.
I see that this is a place of loyalty between friends and that is a wellcome thing to meet these days. But beware loyalty can be a cruel mistress sometimes closing eyes to new opportunities that could be of benefit to the learning and growing of all.
In truth
Olorin
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Post by olorin on Jun 22, 2007 11:45:35 GMT -1
I know Opal Wicca is too new to have a web presence, but maybe you could let me know why you have taken a Craft name which is in Quenya? Surely a Welsh name - or a Brythonic one from another of the ancient languages - would have been more appropriate? Opal wicca has no web presence yet for several reasons that need not be spoken of here but not because it is "Too new". Is that meant to be disrespectful? Also Olorin is as you knowingly say is an Elven name for Gandalf and your question as to why I don't take a name that you would see as Brythonic or Welsh is a good one. Tolkien wrote the LOTRs as a mytholog of the Blessed Isles. Everything about it is off these peoples and also the peoples of western europe. Also its a mythology of this place that brings together the soul of these lands completely. We have only fragments of old legends left to us nowadays. Tolkien has taken the soul of these bits and knitted them into a garment of completeness and beauty and to sideline his widsom and insight as irrelevant is also great folly. So I say to you Olorin is Brythonic. He's a later vision of merlin even Math ab Mathonwy. We have to let our legends grow and no one has grown them further than Tolkien In truth Olorin
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Post by littleraven on Jun 22, 2007 12:22:01 GMT -1
Being forced to make an apology is very different from making one because you see you have caused deep offense. Offense to traditions you cliam to honour yet clearly have no knowledge of whatsoever. For all your claims, what you write displays nothing but arrogance and ignorance in equal measure. Nothing more. Just another self-proclaimed high priest of a self-important 'tradition' with a name that sounds like someone made it up after a few bottles of mead and their latest Amazon parcel.
Have you no idea how disrespectful it is to come to this place and start telling us we should listen to you? You explain to us why we should welcome you. You explain what 'oppurtunities' you offer us.
You prove yourself to us, or leave.
(And btw, Gandalf was based on a Finnish character).
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Post by Craig on Jun 22, 2007 12:51:21 GMT -1
[Hello Olorin, You say I left a mess, well sure I overslept having had a night of little sleep and many visions and so left quickly without time to clear up all my clacker. But I knew I was coming back for Alban Hefin then I'd have left the place pristine. But chance led me down to the West Country for a meeting with King Arthur after all. You say its tidy now so cheers for that- I've no wish to see those sacred groves despoiled. Haste is no excuse. Surely you understand the requirements upon a respectful guest towards hospitable hosts? I don't care if you were summoned to see the Queen you clear up your 'clacker' before you depart. Instead you chose to leave it for others to clear up. As for Arthur, he is no King. As you have met him now you no doubt realise he goes by the name 'Arthur Pendragon', and sometimes 'Chieftain of the Loyal Arthurian Warband'. Also I was told this was a place without cliques and petty politics or bitchcraft but those springing to Stephens or Francis (after the christain St. Francis) defense all seem to be friends of his and aren't taking notice of what I said. And 5 out of a membership of 147 doesn't leave me thinking that all here disagree with all my insights. This place has no cliques. All here are considered part of the tribe and have the protection of that tribe. If you choose to come here and make mealymouthed accusations against a gracious host you must expect his friends to come back at you. There is no politics because there is no hierarchy, no leadership, indeed nothing to fight over. Don't try to divert rightful disgust at your dishonourable conduct by pretending you are the victim. As for your continued, and rather childish slurs, about Stephen I suggest you drop them, you are not impressing anyone. I am surprised at your arrogance regarding your belief that just because 147 members have not signed a petition to have you birched you are right, well it only shows how deluded you are. Forthright opinions are common here and if anyone thought you worth it they would have stormed in to your defence. Also I was led to believe that this was a meeting place for those who were serious about their druidry or Craft. This Craft is my life. ...snip.... Its Tryfan who chooses who gets down safely, it's arrogance of Stephen to think that the choices he makes are more powerful than a sacred mountain. But I do not now hold it against him he wished us well but he didn't Know nor look to increase his Knowing... Then you really know nothing about the Welsh mountains do you? Do you actually think that a rank outsider, full of delusions of grandeur, can just waltz in here and charm the mountains in an afternoon? Stephen, myself and others have spent our lives here getting to know these sacred lands. We know the mountains can and do kill the unwary and the arrogant. You were lucky to have Stephen's protection. Next Your telling me ten years isn't much study. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was brought up in my craft my 10 years of deepest study was my training as Priest. That is what I offer. A Priest has a duty of care towards his people, his tribe. You took three ill-prepared students up one of the most unforgiving mountains in Wales and did not care a hoot if they should perish. You were showing off to the gullible. As I'm warned to make an apology or be thrown out of this place. Then I do. I do not yet wish to leave. An unwilling apology is an insult. You do not think that you were perhaps unwise in what you did on the mountains in the groves nor here. You do not seem to understand the very central place hospitality plays in our culture, so I for one do not accept your apology. I am sure that myself and others here can learn from each other. I do not doubt his hospitality to a traveler, I do not find him failing in all things I never said that. Also its true I'd thought to learn from him. And in that I was disappointed but don't hold that against him. I own fully that that was my mistake not his. Really? How kind of you? In which case all is forgiven... not! You have lost all credibility here, and if you wish to continue to learn with us you will have to show you understand the values of the tribe - Honour, Duty and Love. I see that this is a place of loyalty between friends and that is a wellcome thing to meet these days. But beware loyalty can be a cruel mistress sometimes closing eyes to new opportunities that could be of benefit to the learning and growing of all. I beg your pardon? Loyalty can be a cruel mistress? Can I then infer that you think it OK to betray a friend if the opportunity for further learning should arise? Perhaps you think me a fool then when I say loyalty is the bedrock of friendship. You can measure a man's worth by the quality of his friends, by which standard you can be assured that Stephen is a man of great worth indeed! It seems unlikely...
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Post by jez on Jun 22, 2007 12:59:36 GMT -1
Forgiveness and apology are, in essence, irrelevant without the making of restitution.
You have to make restitution for insult, for arrogance, for putting the lives of three young girls at risk, for pollution of the sacred landscape through haste...
Your only possible excuse is your youth.
How you make that restitution is your problem.
May you grow in wisdom, before you damage your self in some other dangerous place through your ignorance.
--
Jez
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Post by Craig on Jun 22, 2007 13:15:20 GMT -1
Opal wicca has no web presence yet for several reasons that need not be spoken of here but not because it is "Too new". Is that meant to be disrespectful? I have, as yet, seen no qualities in the Ambassador of Opal Wicca that would infer it to be of worth. We have heard much of your 100 years of respect for the 'oaken groves of Betws-y-Coed', and how it was passed down to you etc. But we have heard little of the substance of the great truths you wish to share with us. Some honest questions, and a simple ones. What is the name of your tradition? What was it called when it began? Be careful how you answer because there are people here who can speak modern, middle and old Welsh; modern and old English; Gaelic old and new; Gallic old and new; Kernowic; Old Norse; Icelandic; Saecsen; Quenya & Sindarin; and many more besides. There are seers and truthsayers amongst our number too. People who have studied the occult history of these isles for their whole lives. Men and women who knew Ross Nichols and Gerald Gardner. Friends of Emma Restall Orr, Phillip Shallcrass, Isaac Bonewitz and Phillip Carr-Gomm. Think not that you've simply joined one more community for fritterers and fruitcakes. This is a serious place, full of serious people. People who hold honour, honesty, humility, hospitality, duty, courage, truth and love very dear. Do not take us for the conjurers of cheap tricks Bilbo Baggins! Also Olorin is as you knowingly say is an Elven name for Gandalf and your question as to why I don't take a name that you would see as Brythonic or Welsh is a good one. Tolkien wrote the LOTRs as a mytholog of the Blessed Isles. ... snip ...Tolkien has taken the soul of these bits and knitted them into a garment of completeness and beauty and to sideline his widsom and insight as irrelevant is also great folly. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and did not write his tales as a 'mytholog of the Blessed Isles' (sic). I suggest you read all his other writings other than the main four books. Now don't get me wrong I am the main proponent here of the use of Quenya as a modern esotheric language, perhaps even for ritual. I see the roots there of a unifying voice for many British traditions. But I am not arrogant enough to believe that this was Tolkien's intention. So I say to you Olorin is Brythonic. He's a later vision of merlin even Math ab Mathonwy. We have to let our legends grow and no one has grown them further than Tolkien Olorin is not Brythonic. He is no more Merllyn than I. For a start Gandalf is Maiar, a direct avatar of the Gods, not a wizard as everyone he meets supposes (except the elves who understand his true nature). We cannot let our legends grow as we have yet to remove the layers and layers of history that have buried them. This is one of the avowed purposes of Brython, to peel back the layers and try to find the truth beneath.
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Post by suelittleowl on Jun 22, 2007 13:18:05 GMT -1
Make that 6 Olorin. The rest of my tribe have voiced mine and everyone elses horror at your behavior.
I guess that there is nothing that we can say that will get through to you, because like so many people who set themselves up as priests of their own religion you inhabit the fourth world that floats above the other three - your own.
Why don't you give the Druid Network a go? You have to pay £10 to join but you get it for a year and there are a lot more people who could give you feedback on what you have to say.
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 22, 2007 13:44:16 GMT -1
Olorin, I privately asked you to make an apology, hoping that you would take the opportunity to think about your words and actions and make restitution to those who have offered you hospitality, both out on the hills and here on the CF board.
Your grudging partial apology has not been accepted. It saddens me that you truly seem unable to see why you have caused offence and why your behaviour has been unacceptable.
You behaved dishonourably and were given a second chance, which you have not taken. While we are generous people, we are not endlessly tolerant of bad behaviour. Therefore, I am now terminating your membership of the boards here.
I hope that on reflection, you come to realise why this decision was made. I also hope that in the future, you are able learn more about the ethics that bind the Brythonic communities together, and to act in accordance with those codes.
(This has been emailed to Olorin as he will be unable to read it here)
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Post by Craig on Jun 22, 2007 13:57:25 GMT -1
It is a sad day when a tribe has to expel a guest. I wholly support BB's actions but wonder if I could have found a way to make him understand what offence he had caused us all, and Stephen in particular.
I suppose those of you who are also members of TDN and other fora will need to be on your guard now, I wish you luck.
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Post by littleraven on Jun 22, 2007 14:12:35 GMT -1
As Craig has already pointed out, a sad day. But in forming what we are hoping is a community with a tribal value towards it's own, we have to consider what benefit could be brought to us. Craig made a good point about whether they could be made to understand the offence, but I would suggest that claiming a substancial pedigree does not lead me to believe that would be forthcoming.
The banning of a memeber of a community is never an easy thing, and in most cases I am dead against it as people should be allowed to speak their minds, as long as it doesn't sink to personal insult.
And there is the problem, here was a level of insult that was fundamental, beyond simple comments about something someone has written. It displayed what can only be termed contempt towards the hospitality he was shown.
A difficult decision, but a decision made for the benefit of these community and I applaud BB for that.
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Post by suelittleowl on Jun 22, 2007 14:21:40 GMT -1
Craig - I don't think there is any way anyone could get through to him. The really sad thing is that I expect that our outrage will only have fuelled his delusions. Don't you find that sometimes you meet people with whom you are immediately in synch with - like a lot of people on this board, but the converse is true too and that there are some people whose whole being is completely at odds with yours? I'm getting better at spotting and avoiding these - but still get caught out sometimes, there will be a couple of people at camp who I will be avoiding like the plague. I am only sorry that Francis was unlucky enought to have had first had experience of him - Francis, we've not met yet but here is a big virtual hug for you. I would love to know what Arthur thought of him - can anyone find out?
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 22, 2007 15:44:11 GMT -1
Aye, a difficult choice, because I don't like giving up on people. However, he had a fair chance to make amends and chose not to. If we'd carried on giving him more chances, I don't think he would have learned anything.
If I hadn't been off on holiday tomorrow, I probably would have left it a bit longer - but it was my responsibility to make a decision and I didn't want to disappear and leave you lot to deal with him.
Hopefully - and I honestly mean it - banning him from here will give him the kick he needs to start thinking seriously about himself and where he's going.
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Post by Sìle on Jun 22, 2007 18:14:15 GMT -1
Make that 6 Olorin. The rest of my tribe have voiced mine and everyone elses horror at your behavior. Having only just now read Olorin's latest post, I would have added myself to those of us who were disappointed with such arrogant behaviour from a guest. This is a serious place, full of serious people. People who hold honour, honesty, humility, hospitality, duty, courage, truth and love very dear. Very well said, Craig. Its certainly why I like coming to these forums. I have only met one member in real life, but I hope to increase that number in the future. I hope I can restore the reputation of my fellow Australians by displaying those very qualities you list in your post, Craig. So far, I have found the members of this site to hold true to those virtues. The banning of a member of a community is never an easy thing, and in most cases I am dead against it as people should be allowed to speak their minds, as long as it doesn't sink to personal insult. And there is the problem, here was a level of insult that was fundamental, beyond simple comments about something someone has written. It displayed what can only be termed contempt towards the hospitality he was shown. A difficult decision, but a decision made for the benefit of these community and I applaud BB for that. I would like to add my support ot BB's actions in this matter and agree with the sentiments expressed by LittleRaven, with one addition: I will not mourn the loss of this particular personality. Cheers, Webwitch ;D
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Post by Craig on Jun 24, 2007 10:27:24 GMT -1
OK good people,
I would to appeal to you to draw this sorry incident to a close here. But before I do I have one very sad epitaph to the whole thing from Stephen:
Shall we chalk this one up to experience and now let it lie?
Thanks.
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Post by Lee on Aug 1, 2007 13:13:16 GMT -1
wow, just found this thread.
what a tosser.
shame you brought him down off the mountain.
oh well
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