Outside influences and Brython

[nellie]

Hmm, not sure if this should be under 'brython'?

I've re-read the core values statement on the Dun Brython site but I still wanted to get a clearer picture from you folk...

The main focus of the Brython project is obviously Brythonic dieties, and also Romano-Brythonic dieties. Makes sense.
It's stated that this isn't exclusive and there is mention of possible inclusion of saxon and other influences if. It's this particularly I'm interested in hearing about.

For me it's particulary pertinent as the area I grew up in and live in now was massively affected by the saxon invasions and similarly to areas that have been influenced by a norse presence - rather than ignore that I'm keen to acknowledge it.

How much of a place do you all feel the other layers of british heritage have to play within Brython? For example would you be happy to include a feast day for a heathen deity or a festival which honours a scandinavian deity within the brython framework for example? How would you decide if these things were worthwhile incorporating into Brython?

I'm not angling for something by the way lol! ;D Just genuinely interested in the overall feelings about outside influences.

[Rion]

I can't speak for everyone, but I will say for me that if there is a scandinavian deity that speaks to you you can (should!) incorporate them into your personal practice, but I think it's unlikely we will do anything as a group to honour non-British deities.

[Adam]

Rion pretty much sums up my opinion in the matter too :-)

[potia]

Yep, I'd say Rion's got it about right.

Some Brython members have been drawn to heathen deities and personally I have learnt a fair amount from talking with those in the heathen community. To me the heathen gods, while not completely out of my expereince, are partying in the next house over - often loudly

[arth_frown]

I agree with Rion.

I learning about heathery at the moment. I would say if you are drawn to Heathen gods then it's best to learn as much about them as possible.

[nellie]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I like to be sure of where everything stands lol!

Personally I'm almost certain that in time my own beliefs and personal practise will include some aspects of heathenry or heathen deities, but who knows. At the moment though I'm trying to keep focused on learning as much as I can about Brythonic heritage and forming some firm foundations. And I'm thouroughly enjoying being a member of caer feddwyd - so thanks for having me and thanks everyone for answering all my questions (even when the answers seem blindingly obvious!) I've never felt more at home

[Tegernacus]

I'm the exact opposite to most, I'm deliberately NOT looking into Heathen or other traditions. I'm concerned about contamination.. no, that sounds wrong! Lol... you know what I mean. Sure, there are anthropological parallels, but I'm concerned about imposing/layering ideas and customs onto the Brythonic that didn't exist until the Angles and Saxons came over.

Saying that though - if you are one of the Angles or Saxons you should definitely look into that tradition, it is fantastic. Similarly if you are of Viking ancestry. Not sure it should be layered with the Brythonic though

[arth_frown]

Jan 28, 2011 11:01:27 GMT -1 Tegernacus said:

I'm the exact opposite to most, I'm deliberately NOT looking into Heathen or other traditions. I'm concerned about contamination.. no, that sounds wrong! Lol... you know what I mean. Sure, there are anthropological parallels, but I'm concerned about imposing/layering ideas and customs onto the Brythonic that didn't exist until the Angles and Saxons came over.

To be fair the Celts where butt up against the Germanic tribes on the continent. Even Tacitus got confused between the two.

[arth_frown]

What I fail to understand is why people have gods from five different pantheons.
Surely is makes things confusing and a bit of jack of all trades, master of none?

[Tegernacus]

but all gods are one god. And stop oppressing my spiritual framework, you.. you... Brython type...

[Deleted]

Jan 28, 2011 14:46:39 GMT -1 arth_frown said:

What I fail to understand is why people have gods from five different pantheons.
Surely is makes things confusing and a bit of jack of all trades, master of none?

(shrug) They picked me (well most of them), it isn't confusing though just...busy at times. I figure with modern technology you have access to a lot more knowledge so it's easier.

[Francis]

My ‘Brythonic’ path has always been about place, rather than a moment in time. The late Neolithic and into the early iron age appeal to me – for reasons I’m not certain of – but I find, without any doubt, a resonance for that period. For most people here a distinction is made in terms of pre/post the arrival of Christianity to these shores. The last two thousand years though are every bit as important to forming, and understanding, a relationship with this land – and relationship with the gods and local Spirits of Place is (I believe) no more than a subset of experience nested within the total experience of relationship with the land.

I live in a part of this island which has less long term history of settlement and conquest by Viking and Anglo/Saxon/Jute – and so the ‘mechanism’ of relationship with the land following their model was less developed and used in the area of wales where I live. So for this reason I don’t look for clues to developing my interaction with the land in ‘Saxon’ or Scandinavian traditions.
Everything post the arrival of Christianity here is important to my practice though. The way the land was shaped through politics and agriculture – Llewellyn and enclosure – the battles and the way in which people lived with the land i.e. Hafod / Hendre. The ancestors and heroes post Christianitiy's coming are just as important, irrespective of their ostensible or nominal beliefs. Battle Heroes aren’t to be looked for just in the dimly ‘known’ battles of the past – I believe a ‘Brythonic’ path should place as much importance on a recognition of the shaping of our land by heroes and battles like Douglas Bader and the Battle of Britain, as it should on the more mythically glamorous such as Arthur and Camlan.

It’s definitely not about pic ‘n’ mix from various pantheons and traditions. From my perspective a Brythonic path is about the Spirits of this land in their totality, both the very minor very local ones, and those who’s greater Spheres of Influence leads humans to title them as gods. I think it’s also important to recognise that these Spirits are not immortal – and the Spirits of the relatively young moors and East Anglian fens, for example, are as worthy of acknowledgement as those of the older forests and the ones we can find clues (through archaeology and myths etc.) to having had a long history of interaction with humans. Arguably just choosing to consider one brief period of a few hundreds of years of our islands history as somehow a time of ‘purer’ communion with our islands spirits might be considered to be the more deliberately ‘picky’ and blinkered approach?

[nellie]

Francis - you manage to put into words the sort of approach I'm hoping to manage myself. I don't know how a Brythonic path might harmonize with other elements depending on place, but I don't want to ignore the vaious other threads that make up the over all pattern of both the area and various ancestors.
The peoples that were Brythonic found a way to do this so I hope I can too!

I've been reading too much Puhvel, so I wonder if the common cultural roots of say the Germanic and Brythonic traditions make the Germanic or Scandinavian worth giving some thought to. It's something I'm interested in, but what do you all think?

[redraven]

I can back up the post done by Francis but in an entirely different set of physical conditions. My contact with Spirits of Place and any pantheon of deities, is facilitated through the remains of the mining industry here in the Midlands. The spoil heaps that have now, after 20 odd years, been landscaped back into the enivironment, are the physical pre-requisites for my actions in most, but not all, interactions with spirit. The spirits here have been transmuted through these physical alterations to the environment and it is only through this transmutation that I have been able to "reasonably" interact with them. Every layer of time has had some effect on them and I have long since given up trying to place some sort of hierarchical importance using the concept that chronological sequencing is somehow important to them. The information I have been given is that chronological sequencing is a human construct and subject to our experience of linear time and is not of primary importance to them.

RR

[Deleted]

An interesting subject to be sure. I personally am uneasy with mixed metaphors though the pagan traditions here in the USA use them freely. i have the theory that when you are from a recognisable mixed heritage, as most Americans are, then mixing up the deities from just about everywhere is natural. Frequently I've been to OBOD rituals that begin with native american smudging, talk of karma and the incorporating of Irish gods into a Brythonic Pantheon. As I mention it makes me uneasy.
I respect the spirits of place. My wife, who is an Apache, and I have been to Indian prayer circles and sacred drum circles where I have been happy to respectfully observe but not partake. Not because I cannot but because it feels foreign. I have spoken to a number of Indians who feel the same way and even feel a certain animosity towards the new age movement's hijacking some of their spiritual practices.
In short I'm a crusty old Welshman who remembers the Gods and heroes of my homeland. I refuse to be reconstructed into some kind of mix and match. The Gods are not a buffet.

[dreamguardian]

Feb 9, 2011 17:19:28 GMT -1 @peter said:

An interesting subject to be sure. I personally am uneasy with mixed metaphors though the pagan traditions here in the USA use them freely. i have the theory that when you are from a recognisable mixed heritage, as most Americans are, then mixing up the deities from just about everywhere is natural. Frequently I've been to OBOD rituals that begin with native american smudging, talk of karma and the incorporating of Irish gods into a Brythonic Pantheon. As I mention it makes me uneasy.
I respect the spirits of place. My wife, who is an Apache, and I have been to Indian prayer circles and sacred drum circles where I have been happy to respectfully observe but not partake. Not because I cannot but because it feels foreign. I have spoken to a number of Indians who feel the same way and even feel a certain animosity towards the new age movement's hijacking some of their spiritual practices.
In short I'm a crusty old Welshman who remembers the Gods and heroes of my homeland. I refuse to be reconstructed into some kind of mix and match. The Gods are not a buffet.

Thanks, Peter

This ties in nicely with a previous question I made on a seperate post regarding american pagans & deities:

caerfeddwyd.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Table&thread=1678&page=1

Jan 17, 2011 18:34:33 GMT -1 dreamguardian said:

It's an interesting mix. I wondered, Have you felt close to any of the local deities?

The reason for my curiosity is that my upbringing was in south London, as was my maturing into a man. It naturally is my 'spiritual' home. For instance, when I skipped school as a lad, I would take a short walk to the thames & felt (and still do) something very emotional about the place and presences there.

However I have since left the place and reside in a different country. It's only on special occassions I pay tribute to the Gods of my 'home'. My main focus is naturally on the local Gods of west Wales where I reside, as well as SoP here. Although a stranger to these parts and a foreigner, it's always been spiritually pleasing & rewarding.