Honouring ancestors

[Deleted]

I wonder if Brython has an answer for me?

To my partner her ancestors are vitally important. Her parents are wonderful people, her grandparents live on in family stories, tools and artefacts and her family have lived in this area for hundreds, possibly thousands of years. Not honouring her ancestors is unthinkable. They've clearly given and continue to give her a great deal. Not giving them the respect they are due would be rude and ungrateful.

It delights me that her forebears also have an effect on me; I'm terrified of breaking 'Granny's bowl', for example (although it does turn out the best cakes).

I have a problem though with the thought of honouring my own ancestors. I know very little of my family past beyond grandparents (most of whom were not exactly loveable), and in recent years my parents have let me down badly when I needed their emotional support more than ever. I don't feel at all inclined to honour the ancestors that I know or knew.

Do I need to honour my ancestors?

[Lee]

nope, some of mine were the most despicable kind of c**ts. that said, they weren't all like that and you have to accept that there was some shit in the flower beds as it were.

at the moment i am finding that the best way to honour them is to learn who they were (via a lot of genealogy at the moment), so am in the process of tracing them back a couple hundred years and fleshing out where they lived, what they did and where they came from.

on my fathers side there have been some surprises, some scandals and some really dodgy looking dealings in the records i have dig up.

all that aside, this process is really bringing them alive for me.

[Deleted]

No shit no flowers I suppose.

[redraven]

I try not to be judgmental with my ancestors because I don't know their exact circumstances so therefore can't say with any degree of certaintity if I would have made the same life choices as they did. One thing is for certain though, without their genetic and even physical and mental input, I wouldn't be the person I am today, so I tend to move them outside some of the modern moralistic frameworks today's society is all to quick to apply to situations and trust that, just like the rest of us, sometimes they got it right, sometimes they fucked up. It's a price we pay for taking human form.

RR

[potia]

I don't think you can honour anything unless you want to do so but you can learn from the mistakes of your ancestors too.

My own natural father is one I have hated in the past and it wasn't until he died a few years ago that I realised that in spite of the bitterness I had held he was still my father and deep down there was still a little girl that loved him. As I have grown older I think I have come to understand him a bit more. I don't agreee with what he did but I have a better understanding of why he might have made the decisions he did. And so I now honour him for the good things I can remember and for the lessons I have learnt from knowing him.

Learning more about ancestry going further back can be fascinating and real eye opener sometimes. In my family it is my mum that is the expert on this and she's been researching our family for about 30 years now on and off. Only last weekend she met up with recently discovered relatives so there's always something new to learn and find out. And the snippets of stories you find out along the way really do bring them closer to you.

[Brochfael]

Here's an excerpt from the chapter in my PhD thesis which I'm writing on the subject of ancestors and reburial. Please let me know what you think. Please do not post it publicly.

6.3 UK Pagans and the concept of Ancestors
In this section I shall explain the role of spiritually important ancestors, hereafter capitalised as 'Ancestors', in contemporary Paganism. I shall first identify whom Pagans refer to when they speak of Ancestors and attempt to identify how and when they became important in contemporary Paganism before speculating about why and identifying the implications for Pagan interactions with heritage and museum professionals and archaeologists.

6.3.1 Who are the Ancestors?
A person's ancestors (as defined by OERD) are the people from whom they are descended. However I am using the capitalised form, Ancestors, to refer to those among the dead who are particularly venerated or who are interacted with on a spiritual level. Helen Hardacre (2005:320) defines Ancestor worship in the Encyclopedia of Religion as 'rites and beliefs concerning dead kinsmen'. I contend that this definition is problematic since the contemporary Pagans and others hold a concept of Ancestors which is not restricted to those of the same kin group. In his autobiographical description of his training as a sangoma (South African witch doctor), James Hall (1995) describes the ancestral spirits (lidlotis) with whom he interacts in his spiritual practices. It is made clear in his description that these are not his genetic ancestors in the kin sense even though they are Ancestors in the spiritual sense.

My inclination is to follow Bryn Colvin (2006) in dividing Ancestors in contemporary Pagan traditions into three categories :
1. Ancestors of blood - kin ancestors who are spiritually significant Ancestors as well;
2. Ancestors of place - people who lived in the same place as the present believer and whose ghosts and memories may be said to echo there;
3. Ancestors of tradition - those people who have influenced the thinking and spirituality of the believer and those who share a perceived identity of Pagan spirituality.

In the literature of the Pagan community there is variance on how these categories are defined. For example, Phillip Shallcrass (Archdruid of the British Druid Order) speaks of 'ancestors of blood' (unpublished:6) and 'ancestors of spirit' (unpublished:21) in part nine of the bardic section of the druidic study course that his order runs. Restall Orr acknowledges that Lindow Man may not be a genetic ancestor to most modern Pagans but described him as being 'a part of their ancestral environment and as such is one of our dead' (2007b:34)

6.3.2 How when and why did ancestor worship appear in contemporary Paganism?
As far as I have been able to determine, there was very little reference to ancestors in Druid and Wiccan liturgies and theologies prior to the 1990s. Within the contemporary Pagan community, only Shamans (Merete Jakobsen's urban shamans 1999:REF), drawing on Native American and Australian Aboriginal ideas (REF), seem to have involved themselves with Ancestors prior to that time (e.g. Day 1995:14). However as Shamanic techniques became increasingly popular across the contemporary Pagan scene through the 1990s the concept of Ancestors and ideas of how to interact with them became more important. Shamanic practices were championed in Druidry at this time by Phillip Shallcrass (reputedly described by Professor Ronald Hutton as a shaman masquerading as a druid) and Emma Restall-Orr with the inception of the British Druid Order and subsequently by John and Caitlin Matthews with their work on 'Awenyddion', whom they described as early mediaeval Welsh Shamanic practitioners. Within heathenry, lip service seems to have been paid to ancestors but a more Shamanic approach seems to have been introduced by Jenny Blain with her book 'The Nine Worlds of Seidr Magic' (2002).

6.3.3 Why are they the ancestors?
If we accept that Hardacre (2005:321) is correct that almost all spiritualities which venerate Ancestors restrict their definition of Ancestors to lineal kin, then why should contemporary Pagans be different? Perhaps the most obvious answer lies with the narratives of Christian oppression of Pagans (see chapter 1) and the fact that for many people their Christian ancestors are considered to be hostile to their spirituality. These Christian ancestors therefore become problematical as Ancestors. I would not be surprised if rituals and practices to placate these Christian ancestors emerge over the coming decades but they are unlikely to be revered and held up as examples as positive ancestors. (Check for Names) have asserted that contemporary Paganism may be the only religion which does not attempt to give itself authority through historical lineage. I disagree and I would suggest that the adoption of pre-Christian human remains would have, to some degree, a functional purpose of legitimating contemporary Pagans as heirs to the paganisms of the ancient past. Indeed in her somewhat satirical look at the varieties of contemporary Pagans, Julia Day (1995:11) drily observes that 'For every ounce of hereditary witch you can have several pounds of pretend ones'. This desire to be seen as a descendant of older Pagans may be construed as an attempt to be more Pagan than others or to claim a position of authority or respect. I would suggest that claiming the remains of ancient pre-Christian people as Ancestors provides both a legitimating connection with the Paganisms of the past and is an expression of perceived shared identity as Pagans.

[Deleted]

Thank you Brochfael.

I've only recently been able to apply labels to things I've always known and felt and which now show me that I am a pagan. This has lead me to try and learn a little more about what that means and is why I'm here.

The part in your post about ancestors of blood, ancestors of place and ancestors of tradition makes some sense to me.

I find it hard to think of honouring my immediate ancestors and know nothing of my earlier ancestors. I live within sight of both Barbury Castle and Liddington Castle and so have a constant reminder of ancestors of place. I have also always practised what is now called bushcraft and have often thought about the people who have done particular things before me and that would cover (I guess), ancestors of tradition.

Given that, as pagans, we would claim an affinity with the world around us I don't think it unreasonable to suggest that we would feel a closeness to the people of the past who had the same feelings or lived in the same places and did the same things.

[redraven]

Many of my interactions with the collective of ancestors with whom I engage with, have been facilitated through the industrial landscapes here in the East Midlands. The landscapes that were originally the spoil heaps and slag heaps resultant of the industrial production of coal in the late 19th and 20th centuries, have and are, in the process of change. But it is the fact the landscape were the direct result of the labours of other people from my locality, most of whom would not have been direct blood relations, that create a platform from which to work. Their names have never been afforded to me and it is my understanding that they won't be in the future. Their efforts in creating these landscapes, and how the landscapes now interact with the "natural" landscape, for me at least, now facilitate interactions with others from different time periods prior to this period of time.

RR

[Deleted]

I tend not to honour those ancestors who have handed down nothing positive. Although I agree that environment and genes and many other things influence behaviour and can be an explanation, I also believe that we all have a choice to continue to visit the damage our parents or environments have visited on us on our own children. My own childhood left me very deeply scarred and even now there are times I'll really suffer because of it. But, I haven't passed that on to Dylan. If I can make those changes, my ancestors could too. So, the ones that carried on handing down abuse and unhappiness through the generations aren't honoured in our house.

[Deleted]

I had a problem with the concept of the ancestors too. My family was very dysfunctional and some of the grandparents were bound up in that. When my parents died, a few weeks apart, I was working with Malidoma doing grief ritual and divination and then learnt about the ancestralising ritual so it was all very timely and helped me.

What I came to understand about the ancestors is that they want to help us - in a sense we are their body in this world and so they want us to continue and flourish. So whatever they were like personally, their purpose and function has changed from what it might have been in this life. They do also change after death and have a wider perspective on things.

We did ask him about ancestors who might have been very bad but I don't think his answer was clear enough for me to have remembered it...

I meditated on my grandparents good qualities and realised I could benefit from their expertise in areas outside my skills. I found out a bit more about them and would like to learn more about older ancestors (one day...) But now I tend to think of them generally as 'Ancestors', as a group of people who want to help me, and only individually if for some reason it seems appropriate or desirable to speak to one of them in particular.

I wrote a poem for the ancestors last Nos Galan Gaeaf/Samhain recognising this common purpose:

As life’s hours tick beyond autumn
and winter shadows the far hill,
bats gather where once swallows played
and the birch lets fall her golden leaves.

I sit with you, silent ones, to share this meal;
however harsh our words once were,
however discrete our lives,
our worlds leach now one into the other – a gentle confluence -

and like blood the dark ale carries your spirit
to rest in this small circle of light
where united we gather strength to nurture
whatever future may be born
and bless the ones who are to come.

Outside the marigolds glare down the approaching dark
While beyond the river, the crane is flying with my wings.

[nellie]

I agree whole heartedly with Lee, I've found the best way forward to start understanding this (for me) huge issue has been to dig around my family tree, wondering what circumstances led people to do what they did, imagining what their lives might have been like. In a few cases I've been lucky enough to get in touch we distant relatives who have been able to show me photos of people I would never have seen otherwise. To then look at the tribes who lived in the lands where my ancestors came from and learn more about them made me feel closer to the essence of what I percieve as ancestors rather than viewing the ancestors as individuals who I may or may not like. Looking at local archaeological sites and reading up on them has also given me a real feeling of peace and comfort arising from feeling closer to those people who once have lived here. For me honouring the ancestors is far more about place both in the sense of where I am now and where 'my people' came from. I honour a few individuals that have passed on, but I tend to view this as something quite seperate from honouring the ancestors. I think there's more to being an ancestor than simply being a deceased relative so I see nothing wrong with your reluctance to honour the family that you knew and have reason to dislike.