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Post by redraven on Jun 1, 2011 15:56:13 GMT -1
The role of ancestors is central to some of the practices of some of us here. They play a central part in the interactions with landscape as both facilitator and as sources of information. Therefore, their continued existance beyond physical death continues to be exampled to us. Brython itself is very much orientated to using the past to inform the present. But recently this has led me to consider that if interactions with individuals from the past are being evidenced, why could these interactions be not also be sourced from the future? If the interactions with individuals from the past are an actuality, then it would seem to me to be inconceivable that information from individuals could not also come from the future, as the mechanism for such an interaction must be similar enough except that the flow of information would be sourced from a different "interactional direction" so to speak. I find it difficult to believe that these interactions could only be sourced from those who have come before us and if they are, as we believe them to be, from those who did indeed come before us, then our own experience of time travelling in the opposite direction does strongly suggest a mechanism capable of moving in either direction. The only question that would be appear to be relevent to me would be - are the sources of interactions experienced, fixed by time as we experience it through biological aging or is time not as rigidly fixed once the individual moves beyond the physical? Einstein famously quoted that the past, present and future were an illusion, indicating that the mechanism for interactions from either or all of these areas was inescapable. Therefore I ask the question, should we also acknowledge through our own personal frameworks, the existence and presence in our lives of our possible descendants? (Or am I the only one here, who doesn't at this time? ) RR
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Post by Francis on Jun 1, 2011 18:56:28 GMT -1
I just can't see by what possible mechanism this could work - unless you believe in a Newtonian Universe and I don't know that any here could possibly hold such a 'hard' deterministic view.
There are potential physical echoes of our ancestors. Every action I make sets up changes in the patterns of existence in the future. Therefore I have a physical presence in the future. Not a discrete physical body as I have now, and not necessarily a conscious 'mind' as I have now - But every decision and action I ever make shapes the physical future in either grand or subtle ways. Every opinion I ever had is therefore in someway physically manifest in the future for those with eyes (or the perception) to see. These opinions can potentially be 'consulted' in the physical nature of the world, and my likely opinion on a given topic 'read' in that physical world.
Likewise those who have gone before us affected everything about the physical world around us - their every opinion, decision and action is manifest in the world today - and possibly it can be 'read' intuitively by those receptive to such cues (whether through ritual or not). That is by the subconscious integrating the information of the physical world around us and calculating a solution.
( In the same way that Beckham isn't much of a maths whizz but can intuitively resolve the quadratic algebra to dispatch a ball on a parabolic path when he bends it like Beckham. He acquires information from the world, has an innate understanding and does an intuitive subconscious calculation. Newton could do the same on paper....)
I can't suggest how this could be so for 'consulting' potential descendants. Unless the universe is absolutely deterministic then they have no physicality yet - they only 'exist' as a wholly abstract construct. Like I say perhaps if you hold a deterministic and dualist view you could contrive a 'mechanism' but it would require a supernatural mechanism.
BTW I can't imagine how you come to the conclusion you do from the quote from Einstein.... Could you make your reasoning on that a little more explicit?
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Post by Lee on Jun 1, 2011 19:18:33 GMT -1
If i am getting information from the future, is that not then changing the future making what i have received invalid?
time travel - what this is - really stuffs up my head and turns my brains to noodles.
the future has not yet happened so i cannot hear it's echoes.
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Post by potia on Jun 1, 2011 19:56:17 GMT -1
To some extent divination is exactly that - getting information on the future. It's rarely clear though and it's often the case that a perception of knowledge of the future automatically changes it. In some cases we try and avoid things and in other cases we end up with a self fulfilling prophecy.
Where such future knowledge comes from though is an even trickier question. If we are our ancestors then surely we may also be our descendants - is that where such knowledge comes from? Or is it from the gods or other beings that see the world in ways we cannot imagine and read the currents around is in ways that we are unable to.
When it comes to our descendants the best I can do at the moment is to consider how I would hope to be remembered by them and work towards making that hope a reality in the fullness of time.
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Post by redraven on Jun 6, 2011 12:55:06 GMT -1
Apologies for the delay in answering this thread, but life has fixed my gaze elsewhere for the last week or so. Fortunately, this is almost now at an end. I just can't see by what possible mechanism this could work - unless you believe in a Newtonian Universe and I don't know that any here could possibly hold such a 'hard' deterministic view. There are potential physical echoes of our ancestors. Every action I make sets up changes in the patterns of existence in the future. Therefore I have a physical presence in the future. Not a discrete physical body as I have now, and not necessarily a conscious 'mind' as I have now - But every decision and action I ever make shapes the physical future in either grand or subtle ways. Every opinion I ever had is therefore in someway physically manifest in the future for those with eyes (or the perception) to see. These opinions can potentially be 'consulted' in the physical nature of the world, and my likely opinion on a given topic 'read' in that physical world. Likewise those who have gone before us affected everything about the physical world around us - their every opinion, decision and action is manifest in the world today - and possibly it can be 'read' intuitively by those receptive to such cues (whether through ritual or not). That is by the subconscious integrating the information of the physical world around us and calculating a solution. Therefore, do you consider all these beings that we interact with, have their origin in past history? And if so, how can you prove that it is only beings from our chronological past that we have the ability to interact with? I can't suggest how this could be so for 'consulting' potential descendants. Unless the universe is absolutely deterministic then they have no physicality yet - they only 'exist' as a wholly abstract construct. Like I say perhaps if you hold a deterministic and dualist view you could contrive a 'mechanism' but it would require a supernatural mechanism. BTW I can't imagine how you come to the conclusion you do from the quote from Einstein.... Could you make your reasoning on that a little more explicit? Yep. Linear time appears to be a consequence of biological life. We experience time as one directional because our biology ages with time and we can't reverse this (even with cosmetic surgery ). If there is a continium of life after the death of the physical body, and our biological constraints are removed, then it seems to me that other beings, also freed from chronological time may have their origins in what we would consider to be our future. Physics have promoted the concept that life may be a series of "frames" and our relation to time may be one that determines how we perceive time that is specific to our species (IMO, it is somewhat arrogant to assume that humanity's concept of the passage of time is neccessarily the correct one, we know that other animals perception of time is somewhat different to ours and even, speculatively, plants). Therefore there is enough evidence, to my eyes, to suggest that time is consistent only in relation to a species and not as an absolute. ( Bear in mind, Francis, that I have raised this in the theological conjecture section . ) So my contention would be that I see no reason to think that any beings we interact with, should exclusively have to originate from our chronological history. If their continued existence places them outside of human perceived linear time, why does time as perceived by human biology, neccessarily have to be consistent outside the physical? One other point, we have all read or known of instances where the future as been "divined", for want of a better word. If the future was not already present, in some form, then how could we access such information? RR
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Post by nellie on Jun 6, 2011 13:58:57 GMT -1
I've had to read this a few times before even feeling I could join in the conversation!
I agree that in theory this is sound from the perspective that time is probably not linear as it seems to be to us. However I think that how we experience time itself limits us. Whether our take on time is the correct one or not it IS how we experience the world around us. I would suggest we can access points that stand outside of linear time but our descendents themselves are within the parametres of linear time. Not all ancestors become Ancestors surely? There's a distinction there no? So to me descendants in a blood sense are just that, they haven't become 'more' in the way that an Ancestor might have done. In relation to divination I agree with Potia. I always look to multiple possible futures in the belief that the future is not set in stone so reaching out to a descendent would imply that the future cannot deviate from a certain course. It's mind boggling to try to make sense of that's for sure!
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Post by redraven on Jun 6, 2011 14:20:23 GMT -1
I've had to read this a few times before even feeling I could join in the conversation! ;D I agree that in theory this is sound from the perspective that time is probably not linear as it seems to be to us. However I think that how we experience time itself limits us. Agreed. Whether our take on time is the correct one or not it IS how we experience the world around us. I would suggest we can access points that stand outside of linear time but our descendents themselves are within the parametres of linear time. Only if they are already in their "final" form. Not all ancestors become Ancestors surely? There's a distinction there no? Again, agreed. Ancestors, in my experience, do not necessarily have to be blood ancestors for them to qualify as an ancestor. So to me descendants in a blood sense are just that, they haven't become 'more' in the way that an Ancestor might have done. But as in the classification with ancestors, do all descendants have to be blood tied? In relation to divination I agree with Potia. I always look to multiple possible futures in the belief that the future is not set in stone so reaching out to a descendent would imply that the future cannot deviate from a certain course. It's mind boggling to try to make sense of that's for sure! If you think of the future as limitless strands of possibilities, then the human being may be viewed somewhat like a rope weaver. The actions and decisions we make today weave the future out of these multiple strands. But because these strands exist, the potential for descendants being present there already (if not in their final physical form) has to be assured?! RR
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 23:12:29 GMT -1
I agree with the idea that to perceive anything outside of our own time we need to be in a different space. What if that space is simply a neurobiological change, a shift in the wiring accomplished through practice or through the use of psychoactives. The ability to look forward would function differently, requiring different pathways and having far greater processing demands because of the sheer number of variables that would need to be processed.
Entirely conjecture, but I have always found that looking forwards is a rare gift, whereas looking backwards comes to me far more easily and it makes sense to me that perception, on any level, is dependant on cognitive resources and influenced by the structure of the nervous system.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 11:06:30 GMT -1
To some extent divination is exactly that - getting information on the future. It's rarely clear though and it's often the case that a perception of knowledge of the future automatically changes it. In some cases we try and avoid things and in other cases we end up with a self fulfilling prophecy. Where such future knowledge comes from though is an even trickier question. If we are our ancestors then surely we may also be our descendants - is that where such knowledge comes from? Or is it from the gods or other beings that see the world in ways we cannot imagine and read the currents around is in ways that we are unable. Learning something of Boethius' philosophy by way of Chaucer and probably a bit garbled the way I understand the time thing is that although human beings experience time as linear, past, present and future, other entities (God as Boethius understood it) are outside time so they can see it all - past, present and future - perhaps all at once or by some kind of rewinding and forwarding. Although they will then know what will happen, that is not because the future is predestined but because they can always see what happens, the whole course of events, the results of decisions, the accidents and so on. I visualised past, present and future as a globe hanging in space and a being outside time floating in space looking at the globe and being able to trace people, events, changes by looking round it. (I know the globe idea doesn't work entirely, perhaps it would have to be an infinate spiral or something but it works well enough for me). So I understand divination as a method of accessing entities or energies outside time which have the knowledge of the future. Francis said: "I can't suggest how this could be so for 'consulting' potential descendants. Unless the universe is absolutely deterministic then they have no physicality yet - they only 'exist' as a wholly abstract construct." I suppose the only way you could consult potential descendants would be if they somehow attained this 'outside time' status. Intuitively I feel it could be possible. Could places sometimes hold not only memories of the past but intimations of the future so that one might catch a glimpse of one's descendants? Ah, but would we know them!
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Post by redraven on Jun 15, 2011 16:06:59 GMT -1
There is a growing school of thought in the neo-shamanic community that evolution is not just a bootstrapped process entirely driven by past actions but is actually a joint effort with input from possible future outcomes (which is different from a determined absolute future).
RR
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