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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 9:04:58 GMT -1
I've never heard the word 'nwyvre ' but I looked it up in my Welsh dictionary and it says its means 'sky' or 'firmament'. Don't know how that connects with serpent energy but I like the idea of energy as a serpent in the Earth. There is the story of the dragons beneath the Earth in Welsh legend which I half rememeber. Something to look up.
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Post by potia on Oct 20, 2011 13:48:23 GMT -1
I've definitely come across the idea of land energy being experienced as serpent or dragon energies and in fact have experienced it that way myself in one shamanic style journey.
I've also encountered the term nwyfre before as being described as energy. I got the impression that it could be thought of as a similar concept to the Chinese one of Chi. Energy given off by all living things and flowing through our bodies.
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Post by nellie on Oct 20, 2011 16:06:40 GMT -1
How odd that I just mentioned Nigel Pennick on the other thread, and here he is again! I've read a few of Pennicks books, which I've enjoyed but not 100% agreed with his reasoning. The books I've read haven't given detailed references so I haven't been able to follow up with any of my own research though to see if I'd reach the same conclusions LOL! Can anybody who knows about these things comment on his scholarship in general? His wiki entry makes me think he must be fairly reliable?
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Post by nellie on Oct 20, 2011 16:26:26 GMT -1
Now for a reply that actually addresses the thread  The sepant is a common symbol all through Indo-European mythology. I've dug out my copy of 'deep ancestors' to see what Ceiswr Serith says about it. 'one of the most widespread indo-european myth - the dragon slaying myth. it appears in so many of the descendant traditions ... As a creation myth, it was often told by various peoples at their new year rituals...' In his reconstruction of an I.E cosmology from the traditions that evolved from it, a serpant encircles the world, the familiar image of the serpant devouring its own tail. Interestingly to this discussion Serith also talks later of the Outsiders in I.E religion which he gives an alternative meaning to be 'the snakes' of which he says 'these are the outsiders, all of those beings who do not belong to our system. the vast majority of them are land spirits... they are the spirits who ruled our land before we made our home here; the spirits of rocks we moved, of dirt we dug, of trees we felled. they may be assumed to be at best neutral to us, and at worst opposed to us.' The celtic serpant is usually viewed as a symbol of the fertility and wealth of the earth I believe? I think this is how the image of Cernunnos on the Gunstrup cauldron is usually interpreted (though the snake appears elsewhere on the same item, and I honestly don't know if it has the same interpretations there). The dragon motif is particularly found with the anglo saxons too if I remember correctly. Protector of hoards of gold, again connected to the earth. I don't know much about this subject but think I remember reading somewhere (Gods Beasts and Heroes?? Gwyn Jones?? Heron, can you help me out here??) about the dragon being the transformed spirit turned into a dragon that protects the earthly hoard for a set period of time... therefore the dragon as a protector of an era, a period of time as well as something earthly. Ak I just can't remember properly. |
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Post by nellie on Oct 20, 2011 18:34:47 GMT -1
No, I've not read it. Completely agree with you on Pennick's respect though. His passion for his subject matter is always evident. I think his passion probably allows him to take intuitive leaps that a purely scholarly approach might be afraid of taking? I'm quite keen to read 'in field and fen' and 'the eldritch world' but alas the library system has no copies  The books I've read so far (by Nigel Pennick) are Secrets of East Anglian Magic and the Folklore of East Anglia as both focus on my region  both really interesting books to dip into for a bit of folklore and history. The bibliographies of which always include articles written by our high school librarian LOL - Oh how I wish I'd have known his interests while I was in high school with the oppurtunity to chat! |
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Post by Heron on Oct 20, 2011 20:19:53 GMT -1
The dragon motif is particularly found with the anglo saxons too if I remember correctly. Protector of hoards of gold, again connected to the earth. I don't know much about this subject but think I remember reading somewhere (Gods Beasts and Heroes?? Gwyn Jones?? Heron, can you help me out here??) about the dragon being the transformed spirit turned into a dragon that protects the earthly hoard for a set period of time... therefore the dragon as a protector of an era, a period of time as well as something earthly. Ak I just can't remember properly. The book by Gwyn Jones is Kings, Beasts and Heroes. It was required reading when I did the medieval studies part of my degree as Gwyn Jones has just departed as head of department and his influence remained. In it he discusses three texts: One Norse ( Hrolf's Saga Kraka), one Welsh ( Culhwch ac Olwen) and one Anglo-Saxon( Beowulf).The last of course involves a dragon that has to be defeated by a hero. And the dragon is prominent in Norse saga as in the Völsunga Saga. These dragons are primitive aspects of earth energy, gold-hoarders and jealous guardians of their hoarded wealth. The Welsh dragons as referred to by Hamadryad above do not specifically have this attribute, the story of Merlin finding them battling beneath the earth being related by Geoffrey of Monmouth where they represent the conflict between Celt and Saxon. The red dragon became the symbol of Wales and Henry Tudor raised it in a march across Wales to claim the throne of England as Henry VII. Some say this originates in the emblem of Roman legionaries carried on by the Romanised Celts. So definitely the symbol of protection against what was hoarded against the ravages of the break-up of Roman Britain. |
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Post by nellie on Oct 21, 2011 6:56:33 GMT -1
Hmm, what seems a really important question to ask is if there is any evidence for an ancient belief in 'dragon lines' or leys, or if it is a modern invention made from a hodge-podge of gaia hypothesis and ancient chinese meridians etc? I don't discount the idea, but just don't honestly know if the roots are ancient or modern. I believe there is some similarity to aboriginal belief, of singing lines along the landscape? But this is of limited relevance within a Brythonic context LOL I had forgotten about the snake association with Bride! Rosmerta too is also shown with snakes in Europe. I believe Miranda Green describes an image of Rosmerta feeding a snake? She also often holds Mercury's caduceus with the entwined serpants - the snake as symbol of regeneration I presume? I've taken Rosmert to be a goddess of the fertile earth amongst other things, which would correlate with the snake being a symbol of the earth. |
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Post by Lee on Oct 21, 2011 8:15:01 GMT -1
If megli pops along he can clear up the meaning and relationship of the word 'nwyfre', i recall he did so in he past somewhere.
personally i am not sold on the idea that 'leys' and 'earth energy' have been represented by dragons or serpents in the past here. even the dragon symbol is likely imported before being adopted.
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Post by Lee on Oct 21, 2011 12:09:46 GMT -1
Stukely's idea about it being a 'serpent temple' is a bit odd, i mean, we live in a country where snakes are tiny part of the fauna and we dont as far we know have any indigenous dragon myth and lore, hat we do have - in terms of totemistic dragons - is a bit later. i do think thre is a risk or eizing upon any mention or image of them and cobbling it together into some half-baked connected survival. The image of rosmerta with snakes or the snake-caduceous; both dont have to be references to earth energy, or dragons, they can be very literal sakes which had association with healing. I think it is to the detriment of pagans these days that any occurrence of a particular motif is seized upon and dragged into a fuzzy constellation subsequently held up as shining tar of pagan lore. |
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Post by nellie on Oct 21, 2011 13:26:34 GMT -1
Lee *waves* Yeah, you have a point LOL... I know NOTHING about stukely but admit I though 'what?!' in relation to the serpent temple. Just to be clear - Deep Ancestors is not a dictionary, but a reconstruction of PIE religious practise and cosmology. GREAT book! |
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Post by nellie on Oct 21, 2011 14:42:24 GMT -1
In my whole life I have seen 1 grass snake swimming in a lake. Never ever seen an adder in my part of the world. I'm not sure how well this would reflect iron age Brit's experience though?
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Post by Lee on Oct 21, 2011 18:01:16 GMT -1
snakes here tend to be very shy and it is rare to see them, i have seen one grass snake once. never seen any others. i doubt they were much more visible in the past, even so i dont think they would have been of importance. the important animals we see are the bigger game ones or one part of husbandry.
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both really interesting books to dip into for a bit of folklore and history. The bibliographies of which always include articles written by our high school librarian LOL - Oh how I wish I'd have known his interests while I was in high school with the oppurtunity to chat!
