Math Ap Mathonwy

[Blackbird]

Thought I'd split this off into a different topic...

Branynos was saying...


You noticed that too I get really irritated at the assumption in a lot of the books old & new that Mathonwy is male, when its pretty obvious that the other men in the family are identified by their mother and the inheritance matrilinal. Which I've always considered part of the reason its so important for Gwydion that Arianrhod recognises Lleu

[Blackbird]

And quoth Blackbird:

What is interesting is that in many ways, Gwydion then takes on the maternal duties for Lleu. Although it is Arianrhod who must eventually give Lleu weapons and a name, it is Gwydion who engineers it.

Arianrhod, perhaps due to her shame, is attempting to break the line of tradition and to negate the rites of passage that will make Lleu a full man.

I know that some have suggested that Gwydion is the true father of Lleu and Dylan, the product of incest. I don't think that this is what we are being shown here. It is not necessary for Gwydion to be the blood father of the boys for him to take an interest in them. After all, the system of fosterage was common in Brythonic culture, with children usually being raised by an outside party, often an uncle.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[siaron]

Well, I wouldn't rule out Gwydion being the father, and Lleu and Dylan being the product of incest. I don't think incest was necessarily taboo; i.e. there may have been a concerted effort to keep certain bloodlines stronger/purer. I'm sure there is no evidence to 'prove' this, again my gut.

But, it makes sense that in certain cultures it was acceptable and done precisely for that reason...look at Egypt, for example. I mean, isn't Lleu from that type of man/god tradition anyway? I mean a man with the attributes of a god/a god with the attributes of a man.

Just my 2 cent's worth...

Bendithion,

Siaron

[siaron]

Well, I guess there is implied evidence in the Arthur story where sires Mordred with Morgan. I mean, that has to reflect a genuine tradition of some kind.....

Bendition,

SIaron

[goldenhand]

Very true - and look at the British Royal Family ;D

There's an advert for widening the gene pool, if ever I saw one!!!

That's a really interesting thought, I'd not considered the Medraut thing as being similar. We'll have to see if it comes up in any of the other tales.

I had a brilliant idea to do with this - but looking back, I had remembered the story incorrectly: I had thought that Gwydion and Gilfaethwy had swapped sexes each time their forms were changed. That would mean that Gwydion showed more of the sexual ambiguity that might be implied in the story.

But I remembered wrong, it is Gilfaethwy who is the female animal each time, a fitting punishment for the rape of Goewin.

[branynos]

I'm not convinced of the incest theory, after all if Gwydion had slept with Arianrhod he's surely know better than to suggest her as Maths footwarmer

I think that as the culture changed to a patriliner /patriarchal one scribes and readers couldn't see why Gwydion would make such a big deal over his nephew so they decided it was a 'nudge nudge wink wink' type of nephew.

The incestous begetting of Mordred doesn't appear in the legend until Mallory.
Wace has Mordred as Gwenhwyfars brother (I think haven't got an indexed version to check).

[Blackbird]

This has got my interest, so I've been scouring the archives of Arthurnet.

This came up a while back, someone asked if Mordred was Morgan Le Fay's son or not. The reply reads:

Most texts contradict each other on this one. Some say Mordred was the child of Arthur and Morgan, some say he was the child of Arthur and Morgause, and some of the older ones say he was the child of Lot and
Morgause.
Plus, the relationship between Arthur and these women is also up for debate. In some versions, Arthur is Morgan's brother (or half-brother), in some he's her nephew. Same goes for Morgause. No matter who Mordred's biological parents are, most versions agree that he was raised at the court of King Lot and Queen Morgause.


(Someone else then questions how Mordred could have been raised at Lot's court, when Lot died shortly after the May Day massacre of the infants, to which we get:

This is correct for malory. In this version Lot dies in Book 2, chapter 10. But it is not true for every version. malory is so concerned about establishing the Mordred is Arthur's son that he repeats this version of Mordred's birth just before killing Lot off.
Part of the Problem is that Geoffrey of Monmoth was very confused about Arthur's relation to Anna and which sister Lot married.
Fletcher discusses this is some detail in his Arthurian Material in the Chronicles, and Loomis' additional notes to the second edition adds some more information (pp. 242, 282).

If anyone wants to look at some of the other results for 'Mordred', the search is here: lists.mun.ca/cgi-bin/wa?S2=arthurnet&q=mordred&s=&f=&a=&b=

The general Arthurnet list archives are here: lists.mun.ca/archives/arthurnet.html

and there's a link for joining the list on that page too. I'd recommend it highly - I don't say a great deal on there, but just earwigging on the scholarly discussion there is very valuable

[Blackbird]

Oh and by the way - I do agree that the insinuation of incest between Gwydion and Arianrhod could easily have arisen due to later commentators being unfamiliar with the system of fosterage.

As you say, Branynos, Gwydion would not have suggested Arianrhod for the job if he suspected she might be pregnant.

[branynos]

Blackbird re the Gwydion bit your comment about the animal punishment made me dig out my copy of the Mabinogion because I thought they alternated too (Penguin classics Richard Gantz translation) and in that one they do
"the one of you that has been a hind the last year shall be a wild boar and the one that has been a stag shall now be a wild sow"
then when they return the boar gets to be a she-wolf etc.

The bit I wanted to check came next, Gwydion proposes Arianrhod on the day he returns to human form after three years in animal form so he really didn't have the opportunity to practice incest (unless one adds bestiality on Arianrhods part to the storyline )

[Blackbird]

That was Angharad, I think

It's interesting that there is that discrepancy, though.

(Which version of the Mabinogion were you looking at, Angharad?)

I have the Jones and Jones version, which is supposed to be very true to the original. In that, they do switch - Math says 'This one of you that has been a hind for the past year, let him this year be a wild boar, and the one of you that has been a stag for the past year, let him this year be a wild sow.'

The Charlotte Guest version (I bought it for the Alan Lee illustrations!) doesn't mention sexes at all, she just says that they are changed into two deer, two boar etc.

However, in both versions, the same triad is given after this episode:

The three sons of Gilfaethwy the false,
The three faithful combatants,
Bleiddwn, Hydwn and Hychdwn Hir ('The Tall' in Guest)

Which seems odd to me. Gwydion is a far more important character in the story and it seems strange that the children are named as Gilfaethwy's sons. Obviously, some myth surrounding them has been lost - about them being 'faithful combatants'.

If we are making comparisons with the Arthur stories, it reminds me a bit of the sons of Lot being the faithful companions of Arthur. For some reason. It could be that they fought for Lleu in some tale now lost.

Fun to speculate ;D

[siaron]

Blackbird,

I have several friends that are Celtic scholars, and they say the translation by Patrick K. Ford is considered to be the 'best' (whatever that means, most academic? Most accurate translation?)

Guest's version has always been suspect because she wasn't a native speaker of Welsh. Ganz isn't considered to be very good or recognized by the academic community. I have all four versions...Jones and Jones has been the best standard historicially.

Anyway, here's the same triad translated by Ford:

Three sons of wickeed Gifaethwy,
Three true champions.
Bleiddwn, Hyddwn and Hychdwn Hir

As for the transformations, they appear to be the same animals: "Go one of you shall be a wild boar, the other a sow, and such nature as wild pigs have may be yours too. A year from today be here alongside the wall and your offspring with you....And he struck them with the staff, and they became wolf and bitch..."

For what it's worth.....

Bendithion,

Siaron

[siaron]

FUNNY! When i used the term 'b*tch' from the Ford translation, the board edited it automatically. What a hoot!

Honestly, I wasn't calling anybody here a you-know-what....(pregnant dog?)

So glad to know we're being censored!

Bendithion,

Siaron

[branynos]

Siaron said:

Blackbird,


Guest's version has always been suspect because she wasn't a native speaker of Welsh. Ganz isn't considered to be very good or recognized by the academic community. I have all four versions...Jones and Jones has been the best standard historicially.

Hmm that probably explains why the Gantz version is the only one that *stays* in the house.
Next time I go visit my parents I'm going to have to go on a hunt, just how many versions does my father need to read one passage on gwyddbwyll

[Blackbird]

Guest's version has always been suspect because she wasn't a native speaker of Welsh.


;D I know - which is why I excused myself by saying that I bought it for the lovely illustrations

I've not read the Ford translations, I shall look out for a copy. Perhaps it's more recent than the Jones and Jones? The other copy I have is one in modern Welsh by Dafydd and Rhiannon Ifans. A nice read

There is a good online version at www.mabinogi.net/index.html - it's worth checking out just for the extensive footnotes.

In this version, Math also says:

The one that was a hind for the last year, let him be a wild boar this year. And the one of you that was a stag, let him be a wild sow.’<br>

So it does seem that Angharad was right after all, most versions seem to be agreeing that the brothers change sex each time.

lol at the b*tch thing ;D How bizarre...

[goldenhand]

Great!!! I was right after all. That's really weird, as it is the Jones and Jones that I have too. I must have misread it.

My original point stands then - in some ways, Gwydion takes on the maternal role for Lleu, and he also has other sexually ambiguous roles in the story. He really is a mother.

I like the idea of fosterage, that explains a lot.

One other thing about the story that I always think about - the fate of Dylan Eil Ton. I wish we knew more about him.

Blessings

Angharad

[siaron]

One last word on incest- Jean Markale in "Women of the Celts" states:

"While all supposedly well-ordered societies made incest illegal, they nevertheless tolerated it in special cases and for exceptional people...Celtic mythology contains many (sic) allusions: Mordred, who rebelled against King Arthur, is the incestuous son of Arthur and his sister; Cu Chulainn is the con of Conchobar and his sister Dechtire; Cormac Conloinges, disputed successor to Conchobar, is the son of Conchobar and his mother Ness; Llew Law Gyffes is the son of Gwyddoyon and his sister Arianrod. Finally, Merlin and his sister maintained ambiguous relations so apparaent to mediaeval authors that they replaced Gwendydd with Vivienne, who was unrelated to the prophet-wizard.

....Such taboos, directed against incest in particular, served to reglulate sexual life throuhout a community. But however much constraint they exerted in societies that established absolute monogamy, they were quite useless in circumstances where sexual relationships were free. Consequently, any breaking of sexual taboos to be found in the mythology of monogamous societies suggest the memory of an early social state."

Obviously, Markale thinks there is incest in the Math ab Mathowny story.....but the larger issue is that it was known and accepted as a practice in Celtic society.

Bendithion,

Siaron

[nantonos]

Blackbird said:

In this version, Math also says:

The one that was a hind for the last year, let him be a wild boar this year. And the one of you that was a stag, let him be a wild sow.’<br>

and even more specifically

‘Men,’ he said ‘for the injury you inflicted on me, you have had enough punishment. You have incurred great shame – each of you having borne children from the other.