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Post by Blackbird on Mar 2, 2005 18:18:56 GMT -1
I've been looking at a fair bit of Taliesin lore recently and I thought it would be good to share ideas on him. Who do you think Taliesin was? Was there more than one Taliesin? How do you interpret his poetry? Can the two different types of Taliesin poetry be reconciled? All thoughts and additional questions welcome
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Post by sidhemaiden on Mar 4, 2005 16:10:07 GMT -1
Blackbird, this sounds great, but I don't know much about Taliesin to start with! I know the story of Taliesin, that he was originally called Gwion Bach and was transformed by the cauldron of Cerridwen into Taliesin - but that's about all I know. I'd kind of assumed that he wasn't real - but was he a genuine person? L&B Lady Eleanor
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Post by siaron on Mar 4, 2005 17:06:22 GMT -1
This is really weird...I've been thinking about this lately, because I recently came across the traditional song "The Two Magicians" which references the transformations in the story of Gwion and Cerridwen.
There are some interesting remnants of the story in several place names in North Wales. Just above Aberystwyth, there is a village called Tre Taliesin (just south of Cader Idris, the supposed location of his Awen/inspiration--anyone who spends the night on the summit will either end up dead, mad or a poet.) Is this village a historical birthplace?
Then, further north near Betws-y-Coed, there is a lake that has a tradition whereby Taliesin was supposedly trained by druids at some sacred grove nearby. The name of the lake is: Llyn Geirionydd (which I think must relate to 'geirio'-word/phrase), so Lake of the Words/Phrases? Interesting, especially if it's connected with druids, perhaps reflecting the rigorous memory training that druids underwent (bards had to be able to memorize 20,000 verses according to Caesar).
Also nearby are two mountains: Pen Llithrig Gwrach (Head of the Slippery Witch?) and Pen Helgi Du (Head of the Black Hound?) Again, both could relate to the story of Cerridwen and Gwion Bach.
Anyway, this has fascinated me since I discovered it...originally Bala Lake was associated with the story, since the original name is Llyn Tegid, for Tegid Foel (Cerridwen's husband). But I wonder....
Just to confuse the issue further! ;D
(BTW, I think that Taliesin was so revered that an other-world explanation was used to justify his great talent. There may have been an existing myth that 'fit' already--since his name means "Shining Brow" and was surely a bardic name.)
Bendithion,
Siaron
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 5, 2005 11:57:00 GMT -1
Lady Eleanor - yes he was a 'real person' - but as often happens, the threads of myth and 'history' have been woven around his character. There are two types of Taliesin poetry that survive. The first are those of a 6th century bard living in Northern Britain and are mostly praise poems for his lord. The second type is the mystical stuff, the transformations, the magic and mystery.
My personal feeling is that this mystical poetry is not necessarily 'inauthentic' (can of worms opening there!) - but that it is made from existing themes which became attached to the figure of Taliesin, perhaps after his lifetime when he attained a kind of mythical status.
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 5, 2005 12:13:44 GMT -1
This is really weird...I've been thinking about this lately, because I recently came across the traditional song "The Two Magicians" which references the transformations in the story of Gwion and Cerridwen. Do you know what is even more spooky? That song has been going round my head for the last few days ;D However, just to be all self deflating for a moment, such transformations are quite a common theme in both Celtic and Germanic folklore. In the version I have (from North Scotland - the one recorded by Child), the transformations are: A ship and a mariner A pair of doves An eel and a trout A duck and a drake A hare and a greyhound A mare and a saddle A griddle and a cake A ship and a nail A bed and a coverlet. I didn't know about those places - fascinating As far as I know, the only hint is that he was from somewhere in Powys, as there is a poem praising a Powys lord. Otherwise, he seems to have been attached to the court of Urien in Rheged. I think that there is also the word Geirw, which implies waves or ripples. But then, these things often have an intended double meaning... Could do - though there are lots of places associated with ghostly black dogs. I think they were supposed to portend death? Given the proximity of these things though, it does make you wonder... In several of the myths, wonderous children - or Gods - were described as being shining, particularly about the face. I'm very interested in the parallels between the tale of Gwion and that of Fionn in Ireland - apparantly the names are cognate, and the stories of how the boys got their wisdom are astonishingly similar.
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Post by siaron on Mar 5, 2005 15:39:29 GMT -1
Do you know what is even more spooky? That song has been going round my head for the last few days ;D However, just to be all self deflating for a moment, such transformations are quite a common theme in both Celtic and Germanic folklore. In the version I have (from North Scotland - the one recorded by Child), the transformations are: A ship and a mariner A pair of doves An eel and a trout A duck and a drake A hare and a greyhound A mare and a saddle A griddle and a cake A ship and a nail A bed and a coverlet. Well, there seem to be numerous versions of the transformations, I've seen lyrics with two or three different sets. What I find interesting is that in the songs the male is doing the chasing, when as we know it was Cerridwen. So, it's been through the filter--like the chorus where she says "You never shall have my..."I've seen 'maiden's head', 'maidenhood' and 'maiden name' (getting progressively more 'christianized'?). I want to know what the ORIGINAL lyrics were! ;D As far as the Powys clue, remember that the original boundaries of Powys have changed dramatically--I believe it used to extend north to the sea and west to Bala Lake (a Taliesin reference point!). But, also remember that bards moved around and he might not have been from either Powys or Rheged As for the poetry, I don't think the two forms are exclusive of each other. While I don't subscribe to much of what he's written, I do like Matthews' book 'Taliesin'. I think that Taliesin was as much mystic as bard, and those poems may be a result of his Awen; you know, lord-praising may have been his day job! Just as an aside, having spent several days in the wilderness on Vision Quest praying, when I came back people kept telling me how I 'glowed'. Shining Brow? Bendithion, Siaron P.S. Did I mention my last name is Powys? Hee Hee!
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 6, 2005 10:47:48 GMT -1
The earlier versions of the song are the more rude ones, as far as I can tell ;D It's basically about a bloke trying to get his leg over ;D It may be that the song was originally a parody of myths in which a 'wicked female' is chasing a boy - the humour would have appealed to people familiar with those stories. I remember lots of similiar Germanic tales from Grimms - taking a quick look through: Darling Roland - a girl and her boyfriend are running away from their wicked stepmother. The girl transforms the two of them into: a duck and a pond, a flower in a bramblebush and a fiddler, and finally, Roland runs for help, while the girl turns into a red stone. The Water Nixie - a sister and brother are running from the wicked nixie and they throw magical items behind them to slow the nixie down - a brush becomes a bristled mountain, a comb becomes a toothed mountain and a looking glass becomes a glass mountain. and... I'm sure there is another one in there, but I can't find it at the moment... I suppose my point is that the theme of a chase with transformations isn't unique to the Taliesin story.
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Post by siaron on Mar 6, 2005 17:45:40 GMT -1
Yeah, I got the 'leg over' part.....
The version I remember had these:
hare and greyhound fish and otter bird and taloned hawk hen and grain of corn
You can see it is a predator/prey pairing, so, it does mirror the particular myth (sorry, couldn't source it though....)
Bendithion,
Siaron
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 7, 2005 7:29:24 GMT -1
I'd quite like to rewrite the song to fit it in with the Taliesin story I'll let you know how I get on! It's such a powerful myth, and it would be a great one to sing. By the way, I put a story up on the site the other day - The Harp on the Water - which is an alternate Bala lake story. I've also just found an old Welsh song called 'Taliesin's Prophecy'. Curiously though, it is only the English 'translation' that makes any reference to Taliesin, so I think it's a nice bit of Victorian romanticism ;D (The Welsh version is simply called 'Toriad y Dydd' - Break of Day?)
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