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Post by Blackbird on Mar 25, 2005 22:28:16 GMT -1
Its also somewhere that has been responsive in the past to requests for correction. I plan to get them some better material, assemble arguments why what is there is incorrect, and than ask for it to be corrected. That's good news, nice to find places that are not precious about stuff. And if they have been taken in by the Matthews' - they wouldn't be the first... I have this real love-hate thing going on with them. Some of their stuff is excellent, I just wish that they would make clear where their writing is moving into the realms of the inspirational (being polite!). And making it clear where they have repaganised stuff and then offered it simply as a 'translation'. </rant> ;D
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Post by branynos on Mar 28, 2005 11:00:39 GMT -1
Does anyone read 'White Dragon'? Moonhunter published an excellent article on the 'Wheel of the Year', basically pointing out that these festivals are very localised affairs, and that the whole thing is a modern construct. Probably not news to those of us here, but in the wider pagan community, it was certainly something that needed saying. I read the articles they publish on their website (usually a couple of years after it appears in the print version) I hope that one gets put up. It does need saying I've no problem with the wheel being the neopagan main festivals but it is irritating to be told they were celebrated across the Celtic world before those nasty Christians came along and 'stole' them.
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Post by kern on Mar 28, 2005 13:44:19 GMT -1
Greetings! I hope you guys dont mind me jumping in here,but I have a question.... Im still confused as to when the Celtic/Brythonic Celts began the year and which festivals that they actually kept?
I know some say the Celts began the year in Winter as it being the dark half of the yr and some believe the Celts began all things with the dark half,which makes since to me.And theres alot of confusion over Samos and Samhain,which to me doesnt seem that much of a big deal.It could have been that Samos(Summer) was the name of the month at the beginning of summer and the festival of Samhain(summers end)was a 3 day festival that marked the beginning of the new yr in late October of the Celtic/Gaulish month Giamon(Winter).
I have heard of 3 day festivals but cant remember exactly where I read this. Personally I believe that most of the Celtic peoples(those in western europe)only recognised 2 seasons winter and summer,but I could be wrong. I dont live in Western Europe,I live in South Alabama in the US and from just normal observance it appears to me that there are only 2 seasons winter and summer.Because it begins to get cooler in mid fall(October/Nov) and stays that way until after the spring equinox(March/April).During the 2 seasons the temperatures vary from day to day and week to week.So you could say here summer begins in April roughly and winter begins in October.Normally theres not much difference between fall and winter and the same goes for spring and summer. Sorry for ranting!
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Post by Blackbird on Mar 28, 2005 17:55:38 GMT -1
lol, rant?! Just wait 'til I get going ;D Take a look at the thread caerfeddwyd.proboards43.com/index.cgi?board=Table&action=display&thread=1107766700 Which started to look at these things. Basically, we don't know the answers to these questions for sure. However, whether Samon and Samhain can be compared does matter a great deal - as far as the Gauls go, anyway. We must be careful of assuming that the Coligny calendar or something like it, was followed in Britain. However, if we could work out where the Coligny calendar 'started' in relation to our modern calendar, that would be a big step forward - so it is something that matters I suspect that the ancient Britons may not have had the same concept of years starting and ending as we do. It could be that the start of both winter and summer were start dates of equal importance. After all, even in modern times, we have several 'starts' to the year. Jan the 1st is a start, so is the Chinese New Year that is celebrated here. The tax year is on a completely different system, as is the academic year... so I don't think we have to necessarily conceive of there being one single point where a year began.
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Post by kern on Mar 28, 2005 19:25:13 GMT -1
Ty for the link.
I meant to me personally,not historically etc.
I agree!
This could be true,I believe they probably did have some form of regognition for both the beginning of winter and summer
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Post by kern on Apr 1, 2005 13:57:35 GMT -1
I cant seem to find where I read that about the Celtic Yr beginning with the month Giamon(winter) and that Samon(summer) was the name of the first month of summer.And that the festival of Samhain(summers end) fell in the month of Giamon and not Samon. Have any of you ever read this?
It makes since to me though because why would the Druids name the first month of winter Samon meaning summer and the first month of summer Giamon meaning winter,it doesnt make since.
It also makes since to me that they began their months at the new moon.
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 1, 2005 15:46:51 GMT -1
The idea that the Celtic 'New Year' began at Samhain is just one of those things that has entered the popular thinking. For a good argument about why, have a look at Alexei Kondratiev's book 'Celtic Rituals' (reprinted as 'The Apple Branch'). The idea is that each season would begin with a festival that marked the end of the previous one. So the idea is that the festival of Samos would be marking the end of that season. If you wanted to, you could really pick holes in the entire thing. And you could probably construct a very convincing argument for beginning the year at a totally different time. I think that I posted up a link earlier in this thread to an article by someone who argues strongly against the idea of Samhain as New Year. However, as I said before, I think this idea of 'new year' is a red herring. Part of the trick is in knowing which questions to ask
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Post by kern on Apr 1, 2005 18:35:10 GMT -1
Whether or not Samhain began the new yr persay may never be proved or disproved.But it did recognise the end of summer and the beginning of winter. But If the Celts or Gauls did observe the new yr as such I believe it would have been during this time. They seemed to begin everything on the dark half.
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Post by Midori on Apr 1, 2005 22:56:31 GMT -1
I can give you a good reason for New year being Samhain.
In ancient times when time was not as regimented as today midnight was not recognised as the end of one day/start of another. Many nations reckoned the days change at around sunset and indeed, the Jewish Peoples still set their Sabbath start by the time that three stars can be seen in the sky.
Night was thought to give birth to the day, (Think the Egyptian Sun Boat travelling through the Underworld all night and reborn at Dawn.) another example- Life begins in the dark of the womb and is brought into the light after this time in the darkness.
As the Crone gathers life unto Herself at Samhain in preparation for rebirth it can be argued that the same holds true for the year as for the day, and that the Year begins at the Summer's End.
And, before anyone asks, I haven't read the White Goddess or Kondriatov, These are my own observations of Ancient customs. I offer them for your consideration.
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Post by branynos on Apr 2, 2005 0:58:33 GMT -1
In the mid 19thC the Isle of Man celebrated Hollandtide on Novemeber 11th (old Hallowe'en) and they believed it was a celebration of the 'Celtic New Year'
that bits in quotes because I lifted it from a usenet post I made in 2002 on this topic, only thing I've changed is the link as the Clague ms had moved. The reference to Rhys and the Hibbert lectures is because I was discussing this with Jon Rhys (who runs the bonrhys site)* who holds that the misunderstanding about Samhain being the New Year is down to Sir John Rhys (same name different bloke) and the Hibbert lecture of 1886
edit: *sorry thats John Bonsing & Rhys Jones not Jon Rhys,
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Post by kern on Apr 2, 2005 10:45:47 GMT -1
Thanks for the posts Midori and Branynos.
People seem to forget that when they revised the Calendar that they droped 10 days therefore their Nov 11th would be around our Nov 1st. And who knows the full moon was probably around Nov 11th back then.
Pob Bendith!
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 4, 2005 7:20:30 GMT -1
Well, of course, the full moon would never fall at the same time each year It takes 19 years for the moon and sun cycles to get back to square one.
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Post by kern on Apr 4, 2005 11:58:16 GMT -1
Well, of course, the full moon would never fall at the same time each year It takes 19 years for the moon and sun cycles to get back to square one. Thats true,but it doesnt mean thats not how they calculated the months. If you look at the Hebrew/Jewish calendar its lunar also.Each month begins on a new moon and falls within a 2 month period for example Nisan always falls within Mar/April and the festival of Pesach/Passover always fall in either March or April. Things dont have to be standerized according to the Roman Calendar,it seems many are stuck on having things to fall on the exact Romanised dates. Pob Bendith! Bran yr Onnen
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 4, 2005 17:10:51 GMT -1
Yes, I know that - I was speaking in response to your previous post: And who knows the full moon was probably around Nov 11th back then.
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Post by kern on Apr 4, 2005 18:34:49 GMT -1
Yes, I know that - I was speaking in response to your previous post: Aye I misunderstood,sorry!
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Post by Midori on Apr 4, 2005 22:31:06 GMT -1
Hi Bran,
You have it right about the Hebrew calendar, but every few years it becomes necessary to stick in an extra month, (Nisan 2) to keep the calendar roughly accurate. This is also the reason Easter wobbles back and forth as it is set to coincide with Passover and the Full Moon after Spring Equinox.
BB Midori
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Post by kern on Apr 5, 2005 12:54:13 GMT -1
Hi Bran, You have it right about the Hebrew calendar, but every few years it becomes necessary to stick in an extra month, (Nisan 2) to keep the calendar roughly accurate. This is also the reason Easter wobbles back and forth as it is set to coincide with Passover and the Full Moon after Spring Equinox. BB Midori Yeah thats true,but its Adar2 Not Nisan 2,thats the extra month.
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Post by Midori on Apr 5, 2005 20:25:51 GMT -1
Hi Bran,
I won't contest that one with you, as your knowledge of Hebrew customs is probably more current than mine.
It is many years since I was last part of a Jewish community (about 25 in fact), so I'm not as up to date as I could be. My first husband was Jewish but we weren't strict observers. BB Midori
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Post by nantonos on Apr 7, 2005 22:42:57 GMT -1
Thanks for the posts Midori and Branynos. People seem to forget that when they revised the Calendar that they droped 10 days therefore their Nov 11th would be around our Nov 1st. And people seemed to forget that this 11 days was a correction of a gradual drift. Its not as if the calendar had always been 11 days different.
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