Post by branynos on Apr 20, 2005 15:44:15 GMT -1
Throwing this up for comment and discussion really, to see what other peoples views are. I really wanted to get it straight in my own mind and am currently leaning towards nwyf as life force Nwyvre as Sky God and ignoring the dragon connection as possibly a stretch to far.
Nwyvre = the life force
In Iolo Morgannwg�s Barddas there are a series of triads that deal with nwyfre
There are three primary elements
Calas; hence every hardness & solidity and it is dead
Gwyar; and hence every colour & form, and every course & return
Nwyvre; and hence every life, and being God, from whom proceed every soul, animation, strength & understanding, for where He is not, neither one nor the other of these things can exist.
There are five element, earth water, air, fire and nyv, and nyv is God from Whom are all life & orderly motion.
There are a few others but they basically repeat the same theme three or five elements of which nwyvre or nyv or nev is the life force that infuses all other. The triads all equate nwyfre to God which I personally believe is a later interpolation in an attempt to square the circle between pre Christian beliefs and Christian orthodoxy. I also suspect that those giving five elements are interpolating the Greek system of four elements, but neither can replace entirely the importance of nwyf. After all if it was only meant to represent sky or heaven than air would make an acceptable substitute.
Nwyvre is a word that is used to mean firmament or heaven in modern Welsh with the root word nwyf is translated by J. Williams ab Ithel (the editor) to mean �a subtle pervading element, a fine ethereal fluid� and is a word meaning energy or vivacity in modern welsh.
Nwyvre = the Sky God
Nwyfre as a person appears to come from his brief appearance in the Mabinogion and the triads as a father to a number of people
A list of knights in Arthurs warband from Culhwch & Olwen gives two sons:
Gwynn the son of Nwyvre = White/Blessed son of Heaven
Fflam the son of Nwyvre = Flame son of Heaven
We have the following triad
TRIAD 35
Three Levies that departed from this Island, and not one of them came back:
The first went with Elen of the Hosts and Cynan her brother,
The second went with Yrp of the Hosts, who came here to ask for assistance in the time of Cadial son of Eryn. And all he asked of each Chief Fortress was twice as many (men) as would come with him to it; and to the first Fortress there came only himself and his servant. (And it proved grievous to have given him that.) Nevertheless that was the most complete levy that ever went from this Island, and no (man) of them ever came back. The place where those men remained was on two islands close to the Greek sea: those islands are Gals and Avena.
The third levy went with Caswallawn son of Beli, and Gwenwynwyn and Gwanar, sons of Lliaws son of Nwyfre, and Arianrhod daughter of Beli their mother. And those men came from Arllechwedd. They went with Caswallawn their uncle across the sea in pursuit of the men of Caesar. The place where those men are is in Gascony. And the number that went in each of those Hosts was twenty-one thousand men. And those were the Three Silver Hosts: they were so called because the gold and silver of the Island went with them. And they were picked men.
Which gives us Lliaw = multitudes son of heaven.
It can be read to suggest that Arianrhod and Nwyfre were the parents of Lliaws, or that Arianrhod & Lliaws were the parents of Gwenwynwyn & Gwanar.
The first reading would explain all those website that state Nwyfre is Arianrhods partner. There is certainly a symmetry in the Stars (one possible explanation of Silver Wheel) and Heaven coming together in union to create earth, water, air & fire. Two of their offspring (Fflam & Dylan ) come close to meeting that pattern, although both of them can only be attached to one parent not the couple. Lleu could be stretched to indicate sky as a light source I suppose, but I don't think my ancestors were that daft
In Hinduism Brahma is both a god and the life force that permeates the universe. While I'm not suggesting they are the same (well apart form in the life-force which is the same but named differently in different cultures) it does indicate that there can be different levels of understanding within a culture about the nature of a theological concept.
Nwyvre- the dragon
This seems to come mainly from Philip Carr- Comm in �The Druids Way�
Another term for the dragon, common here in Sussex, is Wyvern. This term comes from the old French, wivere meaning both the adder and life. And suddenly one of the key themes of Druidry is illuminated for us. The Druid term for life-force is Nwyvre - an old Welsh word meaning energy and vigour. In common with Eastern symbology, the snake is seen in Druidry as the prime symbol of the life-force...
...Wivere derives from the old Gaulish Wouivre, meaning spirit, and this became Vouivre in certain parts of France, where the dragon became depicted as half-woman, half winged snake - a fitting symbol of the goddess' energy which snakes the land.
How beautiful it is that like Celtic knotwork both language and symbolic animals interweave to show us the relationship between ourselves and the land - between the dragon in our own body and the dragons of the earth. Inner and Outer, Self and Other, dance together as do the words Nwyvre and Wyvern - the Druid kundalini and the fire-breathing dragon - the kundalini of the earth goddess.
Though there is a reference to a lake monster at Llyn Cynwch that was called Nwyvre and is described as a water dragon in one version, in others it appears to be humanoid and cries "the time has come but not the man", before grabbing the nearest man and dragging him into the river to drown.
Nwyvre = the life force
In Iolo Morgannwg�s Barddas there are a series of triads that deal with nwyfre
There are three primary elements
Calas; hence every hardness & solidity and it is dead
Gwyar; and hence every colour & form, and every course & return
Nwyvre; and hence every life, and being God, from whom proceed every soul, animation, strength & understanding, for where He is not, neither one nor the other of these things can exist.
There are five element, earth water, air, fire and nyv, and nyv is God from Whom are all life & orderly motion.
There are a few others but they basically repeat the same theme three or five elements of which nwyvre or nyv or nev is the life force that infuses all other. The triads all equate nwyfre to God which I personally believe is a later interpolation in an attempt to square the circle between pre Christian beliefs and Christian orthodoxy. I also suspect that those giving five elements are interpolating the Greek system of four elements, but neither can replace entirely the importance of nwyf. After all if it was only meant to represent sky or heaven than air would make an acceptable substitute.
Nwyvre is a word that is used to mean firmament or heaven in modern Welsh with the root word nwyf is translated by J. Williams ab Ithel (the editor) to mean �a subtle pervading element, a fine ethereal fluid� and is a word meaning energy or vivacity in modern welsh.
Nwyvre = the Sky God
Nwyfre as a person appears to come from his brief appearance in the Mabinogion and the triads as a father to a number of people
A list of knights in Arthurs warband from Culhwch & Olwen gives two sons:
Gwynn the son of Nwyvre = White/Blessed son of Heaven
Fflam the son of Nwyvre = Flame son of Heaven
We have the following triad
TRIAD 35
Three Levies that departed from this Island, and not one of them came back:
The first went with Elen of the Hosts and Cynan her brother,
The second went with Yrp of the Hosts, who came here to ask for assistance in the time of Cadial son of Eryn. And all he asked of each Chief Fortress was twice as many (men) as would come with him to it; and to the first Fortress there came only himself and his servant. (And it proved grievous to have given him that.) Nevertheless that was the most complete levy that ever went from this Island, and no (man) of them ever came back. The place where those men remained was on two islands close to the Greek sea: those islands are Gals and Avena.
The third levy went with Caswallawn son of Beli, and Gwenwynwyn and Gwanar, sons of Lliaws son of Nwyfre, and Arianrhod daughter of Beli their mother. And those men came from Arllechwedd. They went with Caswallawn their uncle across the sea in pursuit of the men of Caesar. The place where those men are is in Gascony. And the number that went in each of those Hosts was twenty-one thousand men. And those were the Three Silver Hosts: they were so called because the gold and silver of the Island went with them. And they were picked men.
Which gives us Lliaw = multitudes son of heaven.
It can be read to suggest that Arianrhod and Nwyfre were the parents of Lliaws, or that Arianrhod & Lliaws were the parents of Gwenwynwyn & Gwanar.
The first reading would explain all those website that state Nwyfre is Arianrhods partner. There is certainly a symmetry in the Stars (one possible explanation of Silver Wheel) and Heaven coming together in union to create earth, water, air & fire. Two of their offspring (Fflam & Dylan ) come close to meeting that pattern, although both of them can only be attached to one parent not the couple. Lleu could be stretched to indicate sky as a light source I suppose, but I don't think my ancestors were that daft
In Hinduism Brahma is both a god and the life force that permeates the universe. While I'm not suggesting they are the same (well apart form in the life-force which is the same but named differently in different cultures) it does indicate that there can be different levels of understanding within a culture about the nature of a theological concept.
Nwyvre- the dragon
This seems to come mainly from Philip Carr- Comm in �The Druids Way�
Another term for the dragon, common here in Sussex, is Wyvern. This term comes from the old French, wivere meaning both the adder and life. And suddenly one of the key themes of Druidry is illuminated for us. The Druid term for life-force is Nwyvre - an old Welsh word meaning energy and vigour. In common with Eastern symbology, the snake is seen in Druidry as the prime symbol of the life-force...
...Wivere derives from the old Gaulish Wouivre, meaning spirit, and this became Vouivre in certain parts of France, where the dragon became depicted as half-woman, half winged snake - a fitting symbol of the goddess' energy which snakes the land.
How beautiful it is that like Celtic knotwork both language and symbolic animals interweave to show us the relationship between ourselves and the land - between the dragon in our own body and the dragons of the earth. Inner and Outer, Self and Other, dance together as do the words Nwyvre and Wyvern - the Druid kundalini and the fire-breathing dragon - the kundalini of the earth goddess.
Though there is a reference to a lake monster at Llyn Cynwch that was called Nwyvre and is described as a water dragon in one version, in others it appears to be humanoid and cries "the time has come but not the man", before grabbing the nearest man and dragging him into the river to drown.
there are a lot of obvious additons like the "10 commandments of the bards" and the "triads of St Paul" the source for this set *appears* to be the triads of Ionabwy that doesn't bother with adding any mention of God "and the third , nwyvre and hence all life , for whatever it mixes with becomes alive, as far as its species & capability permit" then you get 'other teachers say'... and God slips in:)