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Post by Blackbird on Jun 12, 2005 6:59:05 GMT -1
Many of the constellations are linked with figures from Brythonic lore - eg.
Corona Borealis / Caer Arianrhod Cassiopeia / Llys Don Milky Way - Caer Gwydion
My questions are threefold:
Firstly, how old is this lore? Having dug around, I think that some of them are later rather than earlier...
Secondly, which other constellations have Brythonic names?
Thirdly, Do the assignations of various Gods and Heroes to the constellations tell us anything useful about early British cosmology? Or are the assignations too late to be of value?
As ever, I will post my own thoughts on these questions shortly.
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Post by branynos on Jun 12, 2005 9:20:44 GMT -1
Big Dipper /Arthurs Wain (Wagon) is the one I grew up knowing.
Iolo has a list of Welsh names for constellations but doesn't bother identifying them with any the actual constellations. Which either means everybody knew them so they didn't need identifying or that educated guesses have been made since about what he was talking about.
Most tend to refer back to Taliesins poems (I think) but again it is later commentators theorising that he's referring to the stars, Caer Sidi is meant to represent the zodiac if I remember right.
If the druids were the astronomers (amongst other things) that Julius C. refers to them as then it follows that there were local Brythonic names for the stars that predate the Roman influence.
Whether Arthur got put up there later because of his bear connections or the name indicates a god behind the hero I'm not sure.
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Post by Brochfael on Jun 12, 2005 9:35:34 GMT -1
Curious isn't it that people on opposite sides of the world seem to group stars into the same constellations albeit with different local names. Why don't different cultures perceive totally different patterns (for example a constellation made up of bits of the ones we know?
I can think of three possibilities: The division of the sky into constellations happened at a very early stage of our history when the human population was still very small and centralised; The division of constellations was originated in one place/culture and spread across the world from there; There is some kind of divine truth to the layout of the mind map of constellations that was self evident to observers around the world.
Personally I'm uncomfortable with self evident divine truths, The travelling hypothesis doesn't seem quie right to me either so I'm inclined to think that people divided the night sky into the constellations we know a very very very long time ago.
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Post by morgaine on Jun 12, 2005 15:22:02 GMT -1
They all do.... however, they are seen differently and composed somewhat differently the further back in time you go.
I would expect that most of the extant sources are really drawing on later texts, rather than on pre-Christian wisdoms, in part because people now are prepared to relearn names, but not necessary to relearn their whole way of looking at the skies. Thus, most of what is published is what ties in most closely with the Greco-Roman astrological system with which most people are already familiar.
For longer and more varied lists of Brythonic constellation names, see John Mattews' Druid Source Book and Michael Bayley's more controversial books, Caer Sidhe and The Applewell.
As always, it remains for the reader to decide how much of each of these sources to trust. As most here know, in my view, histories are written to support the specific agendas and beliefs of the dominant culture, so whatever we read will be biased away from what we seek and it will take discernment and some careful exploration to discover what remains.
Blessings, Morgaine
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 13, 2005 5:53:02 GMT -1
I have Michael Bayley's 'Caer Sidhe' book - I think. I must admit to having quickly become dubious about his writing, and I may have given it to the charity shop. I remember that it wasn't clear if his book was based on traditional lore or upon UPG. Regarding why we all see the same patterns - I expect that very early on, most people were influenced by the Greeks. I haven't read much on this subject for about a decade, but I remember that the British lore shows influence by the Greek from early times. Hippolytus tells us that the 'Celts' (Probably the Gauls) foretold the future in a similar manner to the Greeks. The discussion over who got this from whom went on for a century or two He says that they followed Pythagoras in this - it being Pythagoras to whom is attributed the beautiful mathematical cosmology in which the planets sing on their course through the sky. There is a wealth of this lore in the Taliesin poems, in many of the poems he boasts of his star knowledge, but afaik, this isn't related to any recogniseable constellation. Re. Caer Sidi, I've not heard it be linked with the zodiac before. I would imagine - from reading lore such as 'Preiddeu Annwn' - that Caer Sidi lies at the centre - or at the end of a long chain - of other Fortresses, such as Caer Rigor, Caer Pedryfan and Caer Feddwyd, of course It could be that the zodiac was seen as this circle of forts? (Pure speculation on my part) I think there is a great deal to be learned here - I shall carry on sifting through sources to see what else I can turn up.
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Post by siaron on Jun 13, 2005 13:14:40 GMT -1
I seem to remember seeing a special on television here about ancient temples/sacred sites around the world (I think it was Graham Hancock) and that they were built almost exactly at the same time (around 10,500 years ago) and that they were all related to specific constellations. They were in places like Thailand, Egypt, Britain (they specifically focused on the White Horse of Uffington).
The gist of it was that some event occurred at that point in time that 'inspired' the people to erect these sites to the constellations (seems to me the White Horse had some relationship to the Taurus constellation).
I know that Graham Hancock is pretty controversial, but I find I can't dismiss his research out of hand.
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Post by Brochfael on Jun 13, 2005 17:35:27 GMT -1
Whilst I don't buy a lot of Graham Hancock's ideas, I do think the division of the sky may have occured very early in human history indeed. Perhaps as early as he suggests, perhaps even earlier!
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Post by Lee on Dec 7, 2005 13:11:59 GMT -1
maybe the constellations seem to be recognised the world over because they are so obvious? generally the stars in a constellation are much brighter. ah..Graham hancock, some slight flaws in his work. the one involving the temples in cambodi that form the shape of draco being a big one. what he didnt point out is that the dozen temples he used to illustrate his point were not in any way special and were taken for 100's of other temples nearby, its just that his 12 happened to fit the pattern out of all of them. the show producers also demonstarated how they had found a pattern of leo made of prominent monuments - they showed diagram the lot - then revealed that the buildings in question were in modern New York. the gist being that with enough buildings you can make any pattern you want lee
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