Autumn Equinox and Mabon

[Blackbird]

Is there any reason to be celebrating? ;D

The autumn equinox is a strange festival. Whereas the spring equinox does tie in with some old practices and customs, the autumn equinox does not appear to mark anything in particular. To me, it is literally an observance rather than a cause for celebration.

The only conceivable thing that might be going on now is harvest - perhaps the end of the grain harvest? But that would depend on locality.

I am amused by the neo-wiccan (ie., 1970s Wicca...) practice of calling the autumn equinox 'Mabon'. As far as I can see, there is nothing relevant to Mabon at this time of year, and I have no idea why the connection was originally made. Do any of you honour Mabon at this time? And if so, why? Or do any of you honour Mabon at all?

Being a polytheist is often tricky - are gods with similar names the same god - or just gods with similar names? Of course, the answer varies, but in the case of Mabon/Maponus, I do experience them as the same person, Maponus being the name which I usually use to address him by. I have recently approached him - bearing gifts - with a request for help in my bardic pursuits. The first time that I have ever approached a god 'cold' as it were. As he is a god skilled with music and particularly the harp, I hope that he may help to point me in the right direction.

[tenar]

I usually forget about the equinoxes

I don't know why the connection has been made between Mabon and the autumn equinox. The best I can think of is that in 'The encyclopaedia of celtic wisdom' (Caitlin and John Matthews : they refer to him as having

"a primally paradisal quality which is accesable only through the chain of the Oldest Animals; his coming brings access to innocence, truth and justice as well as the overthrow of whatever is corrupt"

so maybe there's a neo-wiccan 'divine youth overthrows approaching darkness of winter' thing going on there (just as a wild guess).

I always associated the harvest with Lammas/Lughnasadh. Maybe that was the beginning of the harvest, and the equinox might be the end?

[Blackbird]

Aye, both Lammas and Lughnasadh are both start of harvest festivals - grain harvest, that is. But even then, the dates given don't always match up with the actual harvesting around the country...

I think the problem lies in trying to reconcile a solar cycle with an agricultural/pastoral cycle, which is basically what the '8 festivals' idea does. There's not necessarily anything 'going on' during solar events And I've yet to find anyone who was doing any sort of formal celebration!

That Mabon thing from the Matthews is just bizarre! Totally misses the point. Mabon isn't an innocent child, he is the most skilled hunter in existence, the only one that can hunt with the hound Drudwyn, and one skilled enough to get the razor from between Twrch Trwth's ears ;D

[tenar]

That's the problem with nature, it never wants to stick to convienient dates

I've read that the solar festival dates were celebrated by the earlier stone age peoples, and were later superseded by the dates from the agricultural cycle, as society became more farming-based. They probably noticed them, but they were'nt as important as the land anymore, so it makes more sense to me to see them as separate rather than one cycle of eight.

I didn't like the Matthews book much-it's the only one of their's I've got. The general idea seemed to be 'lets take some 'core shamanism' practices and jam some celtic stuff into it intill it fits'

I've always wondered about the 'comb and razor thing...what would a boar need with a grooming kit?

[beithann]

I tend to agree with you Blackbird, The Autumnal Equinox just seems to have been shoehorned in to make it all equal. I suppose it can be seen as the final fruits harvest, with all the apples etc being ripe or the end of the harvest season, but it's more of an astronomical time. The nights are drawing in and there is a balance. however, I don't think it was celebrated in ancient times, although there is an Anglo Saxon festiiavel called 'Holy day' (don't ask me the Saxon for it) in September, but apart from that, nothing really.

That doesn't mean that is can't be celebrated now and for me any excuse for a party is fine. I have found that some groups mix up certain festivals and I have been at a celebration where they reinacted the holly and oak king fight??? so if it's going to be celebrated, it should be looked at marking the time of year without trying to make it fit in with something older.

When it came to the fire festvals, and this is only a supposition from what I have read in places, it seems to me that the festivals may have been celebrated after certain natural signs, like the may blossom coming out for Beltane, when it might indicate that the frosts have finished and time to get the animals out into the summer pastures and the first hoar frost to mark Samhain and to bring them in again and of course the end of the grain harvest for Lammas/Lughnasadh. It wouldn't have been by a calender anyway - possibly with the moon cycle. What do others think?

Beith

[Brochfael]

Mabon is associated with the sun due to the finding of a Romano-British Altar dedicated to Apollo Maponos. As such he is often viewed as the young/reborn sun which is why I celebrate him on or immediately after the winter solstice.

[tenar]

"Mabon is associated with the sun due to the finding of a Romano-British Altar dedicated to Apollo Maponos"

In that case, the winter solstice certainly makes a lot more sense (to me, at least ) as you could sort of see the sun as being reborn at that time of the year...

If Mabon is associated with the sun, perhaps the neo-wiccan celebrating of 'Mabon' at the autumn equinox is honouring the apparent death of the sun before winter?

(edited due to acute brain failure)

[Brochfael]

I would argue that he matures into Beli (or possibly Lleu) at midsummer so by autumn equinox Mabon is totally off the radar.

Personally, due to the fact that no-one has been able to explain the Autumn Equinox Mabon thing to me sensibly, I think that it was just invented by some ignorant septic pillock.

[tenar]

"I think that it was just invented by some ignorant septic pillock."

Ah, like so many things

[Blackbird]

I think that it was just invented by some ignorant septic pillock.

lol, don't hold back now... ;D

I seem to remember that it was invented in the '70s by an American called Aiden somethingoranother?

[branynos]

The connection between Mabon and the autumn equinox is his hunting aspect, because this is the hunting season. Or so I was 'reliably' informed when I queried the reason behind the name

I like it as a forest fruits harvest, but I agree there's no evidence that the pre-Christian Celts made a big thing of it.

[Blackbird]

I can see where they're coming from - but it's a bit of a lame reason. What are they hunting? Fox hunting season starts in November, stag hunting is mainly April - October. Pheasants are October to April.

I can kind of see the general start of autumn/start of hunting thing, but its not something that's particularly marked by the equinox.

[branynos]

I tend to agree with Broachfael, someone decided it needed a name & picked Mabon.

If anyone says hunting season to me I tend to think first of 'the glorious 12th' which would put it closer to Lughnasad than the equinox anyway. Though hunting for the table happens year round.

There is a noticable change in the weather around mid September from summer to autumn thats difficult to miss, and the equinox is a good a date to hang it on as any. It roughly co-incides with the Christian harvest festival.
Which depending on what source you read is a remnant of pre-Christian practice or was introduced in Britain the 19thC

[Lee]

id heard it was an american too most of the people i know (wiccans included) think its a pants attribution.

i cant really see any connection whatsoever, if anything the winter solstice is a better time to be honouring the 'divine child'

(this site is ace by the way - so many threads - so little time)

lee