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Post by Blackbird on Nov 24, 2005 9:40:35 GMT -1
This came up (OK, I brought it up...) on another site recently, and I was wondering what folks here think. This is regarding the usual modern idea that the sun is male and the moon female. However, to me, it's always been the other way round, and I believe that (though I can't lay me hands on references) that this was generally true of all Northern European cultures until the Mediterranean influences came in, bringing the sun=male/moon/female idea. I'm familiar with Scottish and Irish ideas that the sun is female. For example, the Carmina Gadelica poem which speaks of the sun as 'a young queen in flower' and 'the happy mother of the stars'. And in Ireland, the Goddess Aine is linked with the sun. However, I'm not familiar with moon lore from Gaelic culture. Regardless, I'm struggling to think of instances in Brythonic lore describing any of the planets as gendered Can anyone think of anything? And what do you think personally?
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Post by tenar on Nov 25, 2005 6:44:57 GMT -1
In my head I always thought of them as the sun being female and the moon being male, but I could'nt tell you why...just seems natural. Come to think of it, I can't think of a reason why they would have genders at all
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Post by Blackbird on Nov 26, 2005 12:44:34 GMT -1
And of course, you can have gods and goddesses associated with sun and moon - without actually being personifications of sun and moon themselves.
The example that I really should have thought of earlier is Sulis. According to Miranda Green, (Celtic Goddesses p96), she may have been a goddess with solar associations - especially given her name, which seems obviously related. Green points out that in Gaul, there is a strong association between the sun and healing, giving the curative shrines of 'Celtic Apollo' as examples. I'm not sure she really makes the case, but regardless, the name Sulis does imply sun. Later in the same book (pg115) she makes mention of some Gaulish female figurines which portray solar imagery, but there is nothing else Brythonic mentioned.
And another of course - though in this case, it's something that I'm not convinced of - and that is Arianrhod, often thought of as a moon goddess through a translation of her name as 'silver wheel'. Personally, I think this is more likely to relate to Fortune than to lunar imagery, but it's a hard case to argue with so little information to go on.
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Post by velnita on Nov 26, 2005 12:45:58 GMT -1
I think that sun and moon genders are assigned mostly because of whether the words are feminine or masculine. Many different male and female deities seem to have attributes of the sun but the divinity that I know whose name actually means "Sun" and is thought to be a personification of the sun is Sulis(feminine). But there could be many more--I'm still learning. On a personal level, at one time I saw the sun as masculine and moon as feminine. Somehow that has switched and I feel much more in tune with them. I have a masculine moon deity that I talk to often, though he remains nameless. I am also interested in any mythology that refers to a sun or moon deity.
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Post by velnita on Nov 26, 2005 12:56:47 GMT -1
Dr Green also attributes the symbol of the spoked wheel as a solar image, and it is found associated with many male deities. I especially like this symbol, but I don't really see it as a solar symbol. Maybe thunder, time passing, travel, luck, communication, cycle-of-life---but not really solar. How does everyone on her feel about the symbol of the spoked wheel? I'd be interested in hearing what you think.
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Post by Blackbird on Nov 27, 2005 13:25:27 GMT -1
Well, my patron is Taranis, so for me, wheel symbolism is bound up with him rather than with a 'solar deity' (The quotes are to express my dislike of this term, but of my inability to come up with a better phrase ) I've never particularly considered the wheel to be a solar thing, though there's no reason why it shouldn't be. I think the image of a sun-god driving a chariot is quite common - thinking of Apollo, at least. However, the chariot driver for me is Taranis. His bull yoked chariot rumbles across the sky. So the wheel creates thunder. And it also drives events forward. This can be seen in a general, seasonal sense and also in a more direct influencing of events. But of course, all that is just my UPG
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Post by tenar on Nov 28, 2005 17:28:40 GMT -1
Hmmm... if both the 'Celtic Apollo', and Sulis seem to be associated with the sun and with healing, do you think the association of the sun with healing might have been the important thing, and the actual sex of the gods linked to it would not have been seen as the main thing?
I have seen it said elsewhere that in the more southerly parts of Europe such as Greece, the sun was seen as masculine because it was strong; it's much easier to die from heatstroke on a greek beach than it is up here. In Northern Europe you could say the sun is a lot more passive and gentle, and it would be easier for those peoples to think of it as being female.
I'm not sure if I like this idea though, as I'm pretty sure Egypt had a few godesess with solar attributes as well (although I probably couldn't spell them even if I did know what their names were ;D)
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Post by Blackbird on Nov 29, 2005 14:11:48 GMT -1
I've no idea on the Egyptians - all I remember through the haze of past years is that they have an earth god and a sky goddess, which again, is an interesting thing - as pagans in Europe (and the US?) almost always define earth as female and sky as male.
I think you might well be right about the sun/healing thing. In addition, if your gods are not the sun itself, but otherworldly beings who display solar 'attributes' - just as we might say a human person has a sunny disposition, lol! - then it would be possible to be honouring both male and female 'sun gods' within the same culture.
I think that we have a tendency to place a duality upon things that isn't necessarily useful when trying to understand their true nature. Few things in life are boolean, as it were.
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Post by jez on Nov 30, 2005 14:27:13 GMT -1
I am at present reading
Eclipse of the Sun
by
Janet McCrickard
Which is a slightly OTT exposition on this very subject.
Worth trying to get hold of, maybe through the local library?
Jez
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 1, 2005 6:53:18 GMT -1
Sounds interesting. (Not sure about the library though - by the time I've paid all the late fees, I may as well have bought whatever I've borrowed )
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Post by jez on Dec 3, 2005 9:47:06 GMT -1
Sounds interesting. (Not sure about the library though - by the time I've paid all the late fees, I may as well have bought whatever I've borrowed ) I borrowed the one I am reading from Moonhunter - I am sure she wouldn't mind if you read it next. Jez
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Post by Brochfael on Dec 3, 2005 17:44:17 GMT -1
I agree that the wheel is mainly associated with Taranis, a Thunder god. To my mind that suggests the wheel is a generalised sky symbol.
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Post by jez on Dec 5, 2005 19:04:57 GMT -1
I agree that the wheel is mainly associated with Taranis, a Thunder god. To my mind that suggests the wheel is a generalised sky symbol. Though to me it suggests the noise of carts being compared to the rolling (sic) of thunder... and the sparks from an iron-bound wheel suggesting lightning as its companion... Jez
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 6, 2005 9:43:56 GMT -1
Though to me it suggests the noise of carts being compared to the rolling (sic) of thunder... and the sparks from an iron-bound wheel suggesting lightning as its companion... Yes, that's how I experience it. The thunder is the rolling of Taranis' bull-yoked chariot. Lightning can be sparks - or thrown spears.
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