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Post by Brochfael on Apr 7, 2005 13:04:55 GMT -1
You may well beaware that some people equate neo-paganism with Nazism on the basis that a (very) few leading Nazis were interested in forging a new Nazi religion using the heathen gods. It has come to light (via the Loyal Arthurian Warband's) discussion forum at www.warband.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl that people from the BNP have attended the spring equinox gorsedd at the Avebury circle. Personally I find this worrying in the extreme bearing in mind the perceived links mentioned above and the predjudicial regard we are often held in at the best of times. The discussion at the LAW site involves a range of opinions from embracing them and hoping to change their minds on racial issues to outright and open hostility. It seems to be generally agreed that no-one has any right to exclude them from the place but opinions differ on whether they should be permitted to join rituals. What think you all? Blessings in friendship Brochfael
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Post by siaron on Apr 7, 2005 17:54:49 GMT -1
Annywl Brochfael,
Thanks for the heads up. I went to the link and read the comments there...It really helps to know what the folks there had to say.
We deal with weird stuff like this with the local Nazi groups. One popular program here in Oregon is called "Adopt A Road", where a group can donate money to help keep up the maintenance for the roads and in exchange gets a sign commemorating the donation. So, the sign reads "Adopt A Road-the Practice of Dr. Feelgood, DMD" let's you know that doctor has "adopted" that stretch of road.
Well, imagine our surprise when driving down a road and seeing "Adopt A Road-American Nazi Party". Folks were dumbfounded! How it ever got to the place where the actual sign was made up and placed is beyond me! It caused a huge uproar. In the end, however, I think they may have gotten a ruling in their favor to have the sign posted. I'll have to check. (You know, free speech and all). Does this mean the Nazis are trying to become more mainstream? Who can say...their minions are still busy here distributing pamphlets filled with hate in neighborhoods around the Portland metropolitan area, and there was a neighborhood protest just last month about this...
As to your concern, I think the entire trend is worrying. What is their real agenda here? Aligning themselves with pagans? I find that hard to believe. If they truly want to support their own traditional so-called pagan roots, why would they be at Avebury? Shouldn't they go to Germany or even they Himalayas to find their "land connection"? The whole thing is highly suspect. And the environmental activism? I definitely smell a hidden agenda.
Just my two cent's worth....
Pob Bendith,
Siaron
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Post by branynos on Apr 7, 2005 20:44:09 GMT -1
I'm torn. While I certainly don't want them anywhere near me I tend to agree that at an open ritual in a public place you can't ban someone simply for belonging to a politcal party (or movement) other than your own. The feeling I get from the article is that they intended to be more active in recruiting when they got to Avebury and rapidly realised that it was a non starter. If that's the case then it may turn out to be a one off. I think if they continued to turn up I'd be very forceful in ensuring that the ritual was very clear about embracing all the cultures of modern Britain in any blessing that took place. Maybe even listing the immigrant populations from the Celts on up
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Post by Blackbird on Apr 8, 2005 5:48:15 GMT -1
I agree with Branynos (I've replied to you on this elsewhere ;D )
Much as the whole thing makes me sick, they are a legitimate political party, and if they are attending as individuals, you cannot discriminate against them.
If they start pushing a racist or facist agenda, that's a different story.
It strikes me that among any group which identifies exclusively with one 'race', that the BNP will naturally see a potential for their views to take root there. This is one reason why I would always stress that 'Celtic' is a cultural/linguistic definition, rather than a racial grouping.
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Post by morgaine on May 21, 2005 3:54:28 GMT -1
IMHO...
As much as I hate to say this (and I do), if we are to defend and maintain our own Freedoms of Speech/Expression and Worship we must afford others the same rights even when their views are abhorent and/or incomprehensible to us - provided that their words/beliefs do not incite or support violence against others.
To keep such rights must often mean assuming people of legal age are adults capable of discerning for themselves. In a society that routinely infantalizes its population, that can be hard... but I feel it is necessary. The alternative is a "society of infants" who cannot be granted such rights because they do not assume responsibility for themselves or their own actions. In such a case the only "adult authority" must be government... and history tells us plainly enough what happens when governments attain this kind of power...
And this, I feel, is where groups such as the BNP find their niche. Their success relies on people needing others to tell them what to think, believe, do... So in my view, the strongest action we can take is to become self-empowered ourselves, and to teach the tools of self-empowerment to any and all who are willing to learn and practice them. There are very few self-empowered people who will find a fascist agenda appealing...
These are my thoughts...
Bendithion, Morgaine
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Post by Brochfael on May 21, 2005 18:12:55 GMT -1
The problem is that while groups like the BNP attempt to present a dignified peaceful facade, behind the scenes they revel in and incite ethnically targetted violence.
Whilst on a one to one peaceful basis I would wish to persuade a BNP member or supporter of his or her errors, If I saw someone in the act of harming someone I hope I would have the courage to stop it happening, using only such force as necessary.
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Post by morgaine on May 21, 2005 21:27:21 GMT -1
I do not hope to persuade fanatics of anything. Perhaps you have had more success persuading such people than have I, but my own experience has taught me that my efforts will only fuel their resolve.
I do not believe it is possible (or desirable) to "make" others see things as I do. Nor would I have confidence that anyone I might persuade could not be equally well persuaded of yet another view by someone else. From my perspective, all I can do is to offer to share what I know to those who are willing to hear, see, and learn from the experience -- and hope that self-empowerment and self-determination take root... rather like stopping fire with a fire line.
I do appreciate your feelings on this. And certainly I do not advocate standing by and passively watching others being harmed. But neither do I believe in using violence on assumption of violence. I would agree that action must be tempered with justice and that violence must be the last resort.
Bendithion, Morgaine
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Post by Brochfael on May 22, 2005 7:41:36 GMT -1
From what I have heard racists spout when interviewed, most of their predjudice is based on ignorance and misinformation. In most cases I honestly believe that if they could only see beyond their fear and ignorance they would see the error of their ways.
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Post by morgaine on May 22, 2005 18:32:09 GMT -1
An excellent point!
M
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