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Post by suelittleowl on Jul 21, 2007 10:13:56 GMT -1
I am widening my reading.
What publications do you read - what's worth a look, what is absolute tosh?
What web forums do you recommend?
The only publication I currently subscribe to is 'Northern Earth' which was an earth mysteries publication but now describes itself more 'antiquarian'. It is edited by the lovely John Billingsley who is based in Hebden Bridge. I like it for its non overtly spiritual, no nonsense approach to the history and pre-history.
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Post by megli on Jul 21, 2007 10:54:48 GMT -1
I quite enjoy 'Resurgence'. And always Dan Pearson on gardening in the Observer magazine...
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Post by suelittleowl on Jul 21, 2007 11:05:56 GMT -1
Thanks for this Megli I'll have a look at Resurgence.
Cooking and cookery writers are another passion and I love Nigel Slater in the Observer and the Saturday Guardian. I used to enjoy the snootiness of Tamasin Day-Lewis in the Saturday Telegraph (which I used to read online BTW) most of her articles are now in her books - for me she picked up the crown (or rolling pin) left by Elizabeth David, my greatest culinary heroine.
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Post by ceinach on Jul 21, 2007 15:16:43 GMT -1
Touchstone is a great read if you are into beautiful fairies and how to feed unikorns (tongue firmly in cheek) It's a shame because I know the editor and she's not fluffy at all it must really pain her to put in some of the crap that turns up in there - they are obviously short on material guys so some good contributions wouldn't go amiss...
Oh yes my secret is out - I am doing the OBOD course!! best way to be able to have an opinion on it - do it...
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Post by littleraven on Jul 21, 2007 15:54:32 GMT -1
Oh yes my secret is out - I am doing the OBOD course!! best way to be able to have an opinion on it - do it... Hmm, thing is you didn't need to read the Nazi party manifesto to see what the end results were (so to speak). There is a definate character to the people that OBOD 'churns out', with some notable exceptions. But they would most likely be exceptions whatever route they took. |
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Post by Midori on Jul 21, 2007 16:51:31 GMT -1
I started the OBOD corse, but found it was definitely NOT for me.
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Post by Craig on Jul 22, 2007 7:08:47 GMT -1
One could always try The Albion Conclave course. Far less prescriptive, better researched and led by a man in who's pro bity and honour I have complete trust - Stefan.
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 22, 2007 7:57:04 GMT -1
yeah, the AC course does look much better (although I've only got the first part). And their ideas are closer to our thinking too.
I don't see why people need to do a course at all though... like "I paid £300 and did the course, I'm a druid now!". Says who?
I would put more faith in archaeology, anthropology, historical texts, forums such as this, practical experimentation and just plain old gut instinct. Ultimately, Druidry is a religion. Religion can't be taught, it has to be felt. And the problem with the OBODers, to my mind, is their "I'm a Christian Druid".. nope, thats an oxymoron. "I'm a wiccan druid".. hmmm, ok. A Druid is a druid to my mind.. you can adapt it to local gods and spirits, but I believe it is a British religion. And that isn't being xenophobic or intolerant. If you're a Christian, for example, then be a Christian. Christian Druid? hmmm...
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Post by Craig on Jul 22, 2007 12:53:42 GMT -1
Be careful who you slander Teggie, there are a considerable number of OBOD graduates and students here. Do not necessarily identify the people with the organisation - of which I am personally a bit critical it must be said.
These courses are useful if you want a decent scholarly foundation to your path. They can reveal to you work to which you may previously not had access, and will challenge your assumptions rather than just reinforce them.
This last point is most important. When we research on our own, the natural tendency is to look for stuff that reinforces what we want to believe.
Both the OBOD and the Albion Conclave courses are the product of years, and even decades of scholarly work by people with a far deeper understanding than you or I. They have had access to texts and papers which we do not even know exist.
Being primarily druidic in nature they have used all the latest archaeological and anthopological research and are continually peer-reviewed by the coimmunity they support.
The last thing to consider is are they druids at all? Ask what is a druid around here and you will get a forty page argument between several opposing viewpoints.
This is why Brython was founded to try and reconstruct a native British spirituality from all the evidence available.
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Post by littleraven on Jul 22, 2007 13:35:02 GMT -1
Be careful who you slander Teggie, there are a considerable number of OBOD graduates and students here. Do not necessarily identify the people with the organisation - of which I am personally a bit critical it must be said. These courses are useful if you want a decent scholarly foundation to your path. They can reveal to you work to which you may previously not had access, and will challenge your assumptions rather than just reinforce them. This last point is most important. When we research on our own, the natural tendency is to look for stuff that reinforces what we want to believe. Both the OBOD and the Albion Conclave courses are the product of years, and even decades of scholarly work by people with a far deeper understanding than you or I. They have had access to texts and papers which we do not even know exist. Being primarily druidic in nature they have used all the latest archaeological and anthopological research and are continually peer-reviewed by the coimmunity they support. The last thing to consider is are they druids at all? Ask what is a druid around here and you will get a forty page argument between several opposing viewpoints. This is why Brython was founded to try and reconstruct a native British spirituality from all the evidence available. To be fair to Tegernacos, it was me that first mentioned OBOD in a negative light. The thing about OBOD is, that as the largest 'Druidic' organisation is that it perpetuates the neo-Druidic stereotype that does no justice to the evidence of what a Druid actually was. It builds itself on romantic Druidry, ie Iolo, which is extremely problematic as a basis for what it claims to be ie the Order of 'Bards, Ovates and Druids'. If they take note of the latest research, I wonder why they have continually utilised such neo-Druidic/Wiccan invention as the eight fold year, Druids prayer etc? As for peer review, those peers need to be independent, and to be honest a lot of what passes for peer review I have sen amounts to little more than peer back-slapping. From personal and anecdotal experience, OBOD is essentially self-developmental psychology in a ritual framework born of romantic nationalism. It is eclectic and far from unique beyond it's size. Nothing I have ever seen from OBOD is exclusive, historically everything is found in simply enough located sources. What it does do (very well) is provide a framework for personal development that serves a lot of people very well, providing the scaffolding they need. People find value in it, and that can't be ignored. They need it for a reason. The problem for many of them is that becasue it provides such a comfortable framework they do not look further. As you can tell, personally I am not a fan. That does not criticise the indivduals who participate, but I will criticise the nture of the organisation that essentially places iteself as the major group. |
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 22, 2007 14:24:09 GMT -1
I wasn't slandering them, each to their own. I was just commenting on the need to pay through the nose for this information. The issue I have with OBOD is they're taking the religion out of Druidry.. "Druidry is a framework, it doesn't matter what religion you are". Excuse me? But thats my opinion only, and I'm entitled to my opinion as much as they are, right?
Thats not to say the content of their course doesn't contain useful information. If you've never read any books on celtic religion, mythology, Welsh legends, Mediaeval Literature, Iron Age archaeology, European anthropology...
It's not being selective, finding views that fit in with your own. Hell no.I's about finding views that are ACCURATE and historically correct. "But you'll never find them because the druids never wrote anything down". Precisely. All we have is opinion. Even the OBOD course, it's just opinion on what druidry is. Take it or leave it. But it shouldn't be taken as holy writ.
I'm just glad there is a place like Caer Feddwyd, where these facts, opinions, guesses and theories, can be discussed and filtered, expanded or rejected.
Damn, I'm coming across as a heartless elitist snob. Its not like that, I'm just passionate about it.
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Post by littleraven on Jul 22, 2007 14:28:11 GMT -1
Damn, I'm coming across as a heartless elitist snob. Its not like that, I'm just passionate about it. 'Elitist' is often the criticism from those who are not able to be a part of the 'elite'. No problems with passion here, I can tell you. |
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Post by woodsmoke on Jul 22, 2007 16:03:02 GMT -1
I for one am glad to hear real opinions. Although they can get us into scrapes its bloody refreshing to be honest with you.
Recently I had started to think about possibly sending off for the new gwers which as I understand have been rewritten, but THEN I went to Druid Camp and met a load of people who were saying the same things as I had been quietly thinking. As a result, I then came here to these boards where it's actually ok to be critical of these existing 'systems', and to hear debate about them is very useful to me.
OBOD was my starting point a few years ago, although I did not particularly 'click' with the gwers, and did not enter into the OBOD lifestyle. (I remained alone in the hedge until the Ashdown Grove invited me in a couple of years ago!) I am still curious about the new gwers, but not sure I am willing to spend money to take a look!
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Post by megli on Jul 22, 2007 16:32:47 GMT -1
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Post by arth_frown on Jul 23, 2007 10:20:47 GMT -1
The problem with the Gwersu is the material is not open for public debate. I wonder how many people have done the course and have done no further research. The course is OK but has massive holes in it, most of the information about druids in those gwers is available to the general public, of which you don't have to spend over £300 to find out. It's a good starting block but must not be taken for granted that all the information is in them gwers.
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Post by ceinach on Jul 23, 2007 10:48:41 GMT -1
The OBOD course was recommended to me at a Philip Shallcrass ritual eight years ago. My reasons for wanting to do the course have remained pretty much the same since then, wanting to find our more about the history and inner teachings of a druid order, not necessarily for my own "faith" but as a tool to learn from. So I started doing the course from an academic view but soon into the course realised that's not what it was about at all, however, I persisted as I genuinely enjoyed the flow of information and it opened doors for my spirituality which I may not have found otherwise. It provides good recommendations for books (if you can see through the obvious nepotism of a circle of academic friends promoting each other's books etc). Because of OBOD I first experienced a druid camp and as much as I don't go anymore because it's not for me it lead me to find other camps which I do enjoy and which are not so political or elitist (from the peripheries where I tend to linger these days).
My path has flourished so much more since broadening my sights from being so OBOD centric and from working with a small group of like-minded people rather than an ego-driven Grove and I fear it is a danger that some (myself included in the past) don't look outside the safe zone of OBOD but I think sometimes that's as much about having enough flow of information or fulfillment in that for a while as it is about being sucked into the OBOD thinking.
I have forged long lasting and deep friendships thanks to OBOD gatherings and for that I am grateful, including my old Grove.
That said, I don't like the hierarchy but I think that's more down to the attitude to those involved than the actual order. I find PCG ineffectual and am gob smacked that he has been chosen as chief of anything as he is not what I would call "leader" material IMHO but from seeing a little of the re-written course it is broader and more accepting of reality - hard to explain but it does seem to now differentiate between what is modern druidry and what is "alleged ancient".
Sorry but I don't agree, I was a complete numpty to begin with having spent most of my life being drawn to a general pagan path which was purely in my own being and what I read of OBOD at the time did hit a note with me and some of it still does - I would like to think that a Nazi party manifesto wouldn't ring true with me, but if something is well written then anything can pull you in to find out more..... it's what you decide to do with the information that matters surely...
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Post by suelittleowl on Jul 23, 2007 11:01:01 GMT -1
It strikes me that one of the reasons for the non-OBOD 'elitist' view (and I am reference a general opinion here, not wholly my own) is akin to the Enlightenment insult of calling someone 'erudite' - levied at Gibbons, no less. This was someone who achieved their education from book learning and not the experience of the Grand Tour.
How much 'druidry' can be learned or read about in books, or on courses such as these, and how much has to be directly experienced?
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Post by littleraven on Jul 23, 2007 11:10:45 GMT -1
How much 'druidry' can be learned or read about in books, or on courses such as these, and how much has to be directly experienced? There is a name for it in Welsh - 'llyfyrion'. It's the stereotype of the learned mage hunched over an ancient tome in a secret library somewhere. It was a well known type of 'sorcerer' in the Tudor period, and has it's roots in the earlier Middle Ages. Think gandalf going to the library of Minas Tirith to research the ring in the LotR film. It very much depends on what your purpose is. |
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Post by littleraven on Jul 23, 2007 11:16:31 GMT -1
..... it's what you decide to do with the information that matters surely... Exactly, and the vast majority of OBOD people I have experienced seem to have stopped there. The OBOD material may be a useful intro into a structured path of self-development, but what does it *actually* develop? Is the fact it has a 'Celtic' focus the purpose or simply the medium? The fact that PCG is a psycho-therapist should give a clue to the datum of the material. BTW, he was never actually 'chosen' as such. Basically he just owns the copyright ;-) |
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