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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 11:25:18 GMT -1
Post by megli on Jul 16, 2008 11:25:18 GMT -1
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 11:38:33 GMT -1
Post by littleraven on Jul 16, 2008 11:38:33 GMT -1
Always interested in what you write Dr. w. ;D
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 12:09:12 GMT -1
Post by megli on Jul 16, 2008 12:09:12 GMT -1
That's excellent, LR, because I have 115,000 words of proofreading right here....
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 12:46:11 GMT -1
Post by littleraven on Jul 16, 2008 12:46:11 GMT -1
That's excellent, LR, because I have 115,000 words of proofreading right here.... I've just finished I don't know how many words of A level scripts so you can feck right off! Unless it pays well of course ..... muwahahaha!
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 15:50:45 GMT -1
Post by arth_frown on Jul 16, 2008 15:50:45 GMT -1
Very good, if only this sort of stuff was common knowledge amongst neo druids. Then again I think they have heard it but are not listening.
Celtic astrology <shudder>
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 17:44:35 GMT -1
Post by littleraven on Jul 16, 2008 17:44:35 GMT -1
Very good, if only this sort of stuff was common knowledge amongst neo druids. Then again I think they have heard it but are not listening. Celtic astrology <shudder> But then, if it has meaning to people now .....
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 18:43:22 GMT -1
Post by arth_frown on Jul 16, 2008 18:43:22 GMT -1
Very good, if only this sort of stuff was common knowledge amongst neo druids. Then again I think they have heard it but are not listening. Celtic astrology <shudder> But then, if it has meaning to people now ..... LOL I'm sure it does and as long it works. I wish they would call neo pagan astrology or tree alphabet etc I have nothing against modern stuff but I wish they would admit it rather then making it valid by calling it something old like "celtic".
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 19:51:08 GMT -1
Post by redraven on Jul 16, 2008 19:51:08 GMT -1
Great article, Megli, it's good that these things are looked at in the context from the circumstances that the writers found themselves at the time, instead of the ideological stance taken by some modern writers, all in the cause of "sales" and individualistic ego driven growth.
RR
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 20:52:38 GMT -1
Post by littleraven on Jul 16, 2008 20:52:38 GMT -1
But then, if it has meaning to people now ..... LOL I'm sure it does and as long it works. I wish they would call neo pagan astrology or tree alphabet etc I have nothing against modern stuff but I wish they would admit it rather then making it valid by calling it something old like "celtic". This is the thing that continually confounds me, this intense need to apply old names to modern ideas. Does it give it some sense of authenticity?
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TRUFAX
Jul 16, 2008 20:57:28 GMT -1
Post by Heron on Jul 16, 2008 20:57:28 GMT -1
Fascinating stuff as usual Megli, but as I've posted a response on your blog which maybe is best put on a forum like this I'll copy it here:
Well I'm glad you got that lot off your chest! It all of course needs saying and saying often. But in spite of the need to resist the tide of superficiality from the 'Celtic astrology' brigade and others selling their cards etc., what I'm left with as a pagan is a wish to know what I CAN get from these tales?
So when, for instance I read Boris Ford telling me that there is a need to insist on 'the integrity of the text' of Y Mabinogi and decide that the medieval redactor and his[?] readers were not wholly as innocent of their mythological content as Matthew Arnold would have us believe, I am inclined (though perhaps on no good scholarly grounds) to want to go along with this.
As for the Birds of Rhiannon singing over the sea .... why wouldn't I be enchanted? I don't know the Irish stuff well enough to cite examples there, but when I think of rivers rising up to repel invading armies in the Tain that sounds like good pagan stuff to me.
I suppose what I'm saying is that I agree but babies shouldn't be lost when swilling away the murky Celtic bathwater.
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 7:42:09 GMT -1
Post by megli on Jul 17, 2008 7:42:09 GMT -1
Thanks Heron, and here's my response:
'Yes, quite.
With the Irish stuff, what Pagans need to ask themselves is: 'Why, if these tales are so bowdlerised, are they full of gore, violence, prophecy, magic, and sex, with obvious pagan gods?'
The answer is that the Christian literati of EMI (Early Med. Ireland) were conscious artists with their own agendas: creating a national synthetic history, promoting certain dynasties or monasteries, exploring the nature of kingship and religious revelation. They weren't sanctimonious idiots grudgingly giving vellum-space to tales of which they disapproved - they have their own *intelligent* purposes with these tales.
We need to be very wary when looking for pagan material - although there's no shortage of likely candidates, and of course some (perhaps quite a lot) of it must be pre-Christian. But remember that the people composing these tales a) thought they were writing history, and b) were steeped in the Bible and in Virgil. Both of which have plenty of magic, prophecy, violence, sex and gore. They were not short of sophisticated models.
Basically what irks me is that modern scholarship has shown that the Irish sagas are complex, sophisticated and purposeful works of art. In order to take the Standard Pagan 'nasty monks have ruined it all!' line, this has to be ignored, and one has to go back to the bad old days of seeing these tales as incoherent and barbarous garblings of pristine Ur-myths. Ur-myths which, needless to say, we don't have.
I dislike ignoring art, sophistication and literary purpose where it is palpably present, and I would take *real* EMI stories over hypothetical pagan myths any day.'
One day I'll make a list of things that are probably safe to believe are pre-Christian. (Sovereignty, the war-goddesses, Lugh, Goibniu, the love of triplism...etc).
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 8:04:23 GMT -1
Post by littleraven on Jul 17, 2008 8:04:23 GMT -1
Fascinating stuff as usual Megli, but as I've posted a response on your blog which maybe is best put on a forum like this I'll copy it here: Well I'm glad you got that lot off your chest! It all of course needs saying and saying often. But in spite of the need to resist the tide of superficiality from the 'Celtic astrology' brigade and others selling their cards etc., what I'm left with as a pagan is a wish to know what I CAN get from these tales? So when, for instance I read Boris Ford telling me that there is a need to insist on 'the integrity of the text' of Y Mabinogi and decide that the medieval redactor and his[?] readers were not wholly as innocent of their mythological content as Matthew Arnold would have us believe, I am inclined (though perhaps on no good scholarly grounds) to want to go along with this. As for the Birds of Rhiannon singing over the sea .... why wouldn't I be enchanted? I don't know the Irish stuff well enough to cite examples there, but when I think of rivers rising up to repel invading armies in the Tain that sounds like good pagan stuff to me. I suppose what I'm saying is that I agree but babies shouldn't be lost when swilling away the murky Celtic bathwater. It's a good point. But we *have* to be extremely careful that what we consider to be a divine relationship is not based on a confirmed fiction. Whilst we may find use in what is essentially a constructed symbolism, giving access to our 'higher soul', it's ultimately pointless to be trying to commune with a deity that may have originated in nothing more than poor scholarship. For me personally, I am now firmly of the 'evolution' idea, that the nature of the tales is one of a progressive evolution of stories that are important to *people* and the overlays of various religions, culture etc is merely one of a veneer. What this means is that to me it is no longer of great import whether this or that story was written by a monk dictating a Druid, or a medieval scribe his lord, or a 20th century miner, what we have are the stories of *people*, here, in this place. The veneers of culture and relgion can be carefully stripped to uncover how that persons soul relates to their time and place and ultimately deity. To me, that is wonderful. That relationship between the human spirit and the divine is beyond human inadequacies.
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 8:29:50 GMT -1
Post by megli on Jul 17, 2008 8:29:50 GMT -1
yes!! absolutely. The soul and the land. The veneers, the layerings, are part of the heartbreaking beauty of it all.
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 11:57:36 GMT -1
Post by littleraven on Jul 17, 2008 11:57:36 GMT -1
Thanks Heron, and here's my response: 'Yes, quite. With the Irish stuff, what Pagans need to ask themselves is: 'Why, if these tales are so bowdlerised, are they full of gore, violence, prophecy, magic, and sex, with obvious pagan gods?' The answer is that the Christian literati of EMI (Early Med. Ireland) were conscious artists with their own agendas: creating a national synthetic history, promoting certain dynasties or monasteries, exploring the nature of kingship and religious revelation. They weren't sanctimonious idiots grudgingly giving vellum-space to tales of which they disapproved - they have their own *intelligent* purposes with these tales. We need to be very wary when looking for pagan material - although there's no shortage of likely candidates, and of course some (perhaps quite a lot) of it must be pre-Christian. But remember that the people composing these tales a) thought they were writing history, and b) were steeped in the Bible and in Virgil. Both of which have plenty of magic, prophecy, violence, sex and gore. They were not short of sophisticated models. Basically what irks me is that modern scholarship has shown that the Irish sagas are complex, sophisticated and purposeful works of art. In order to take the Standard Pagan 'nasty monks have ruined it all!' line, this has to be ignored, and one has to go back to the bad old days of seeing these tales as incoherent and barbarous garblings of pristine Ur-myths. Ur-myths which, needless to say, we don't have. I dislike ignoring art, sophistication and literary purpose where it is palpably present, and I would take *real* EMI stories over hypothetical pagan myths any day.' One day I'll make a list of things that are probably safe to believe are pre-Christian. (Sovereignty, the war-goddesses, Lugh, Goibniu, the love of triplism...etc). To quote the mystick lady SilverAmberHawk'sMoon: "Well yes that's all very well and good, but when I commune with the Morrigan She tells me that the Christians took Her and made Her look very nasty indeed because they were in fear of the power of her moonly eminations. In fact, I now wear crystal drop earrings to honour Her and the process of change She represents as the oppressed feminine archetype. If you really knew what you were talking about you would realise that it is the male that represents war, as the female is the nurturing mother. So you see you cannot be right. Blessed Be". Told you, eh. Eh?
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 12:00:07 GMT -1
Post by redraven on Jul 17, 2008 12:00:07 GMT -1
It's a good point. But we *have* to be extremely careful that what we consider to be a divine relationship is not based on a confirmed fiction. Whilst we may find use in what is essentially a constructed symbolism, giving access to our 'higher soul', it's ultimately pointless to be trying to commune with a deity that may have originated in nothing more than poor scholarship. Then again, some people have entered the scene with foundations built upon sand, the poor scholarship mentioned, but have recognized this fact and have moved on from the primary position to a greater understanding. So, therefore, this confirmed fiction can be a useful starting point as it must connect somewhere to the individual at that time of their life and could be viewed as the spark of recognition, even though it can be, quite rightly in some cases, viewed as fiction. For me personally, I am now firmly of the 'evolution' idea, that the nature of the tales is one of a progressive evolution of stories that are important to *people* and the overlays of various religions, culture etc is merely one of a veneer. What this means is that to me it is no longer of great import whether this or that story was written by a monk dictating a Druid, or a medieval scribe his lord, or a 20th century miner, what we have are the stories of *people*, here, in this place. The veneers of culture and relgion can be carefully stripped to uncover how that persons soul relates to their time and place and ultimately deity. To me, that is wonderful. That relationship between the human spirit and the divine is beyond human inadequacies. I agree totally with these sentiments, the prevelant attitude among some pagan groups is the position of underdog, a feeling of being on the outside, that can actually be a self created position that bears no relation to the facts and leads them down the line of further inaccuracies and self delusion which gives them a further stick with which to beat out the "you don't understand me" victim mentality. The tales of old can be wonderful things and can be multilayered and challenging, speaking personally, I would rather try to study them in as much depth as possible, using every angle that is available, even if that means addressing some long held, incorrect beliefs held by myself, for when you address those, then hopefully, you are then showing potential for growth and understanding. RR
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 12:10:39 GMT -1
Post by megli on Jul 17, 2008 12:10:39 GMT -1
Oh LR you are a wag....
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 12:14:36 GMT -1
Post by megli on Jul 17, 2008 12:14:36 GMT -1
I once had a conversation with a woman who had seen in a vision that St Patrick was in fact trained as a druid, and was roundly hated because he had converted from the Old Ways and become a Christian. (A voice from a long barrow told her this).
I just tipped my head to one side and said: 'Oh do you really think so? How very interesting.'
One of these days I am going to have a T-Shirt printed that sayd 'I'M A PAGAN, NOT A MORON'.
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 15:27:42 GMT -1
Post by Tegernacus on Jul 17, 2008 15:27:42 GMT -1
To quote the mystick lady SilverAmberHawk'sMoon: "Well yes that's all very well and good, but when I commune with the Morrigan She tells me that the Christians took Her and made Her look very nasty indeed because they were in fear of the power of her moonly eminations. In fact, I now wear crystal drop earrings to honour Her and the process of change She represents as the oppressed feminine archetype. If you really knew what you were talking about you would realise that it is the male that represents war, as the female is the nurturing mother. So you see you cannot be right. Blessed Be". Told you, eh. Eh? wow.... she's right! We've been wrong all this time. I think I've found my new guru.
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TRUFAX
Jul 17, 2008 17:04:24 GMT -1
Post by potia on Jul 17, 2008 17:04:24 GMT -1
Megli - thank you for your taking the time to write as you do. And thank you to those who have added further comments and insights. I like to think I'm not a total eejit on these matters (feel free to disagree) but I'm definitely still learning stuff
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