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Post by Tegernacus on Sept 25, 2008 7:35:01 GMT -1
agreed.
When we're talking about tribe, we're not suggesting setting up a load of iron-age Findhorns around the country. We're talking about being joined in a shared identity, a shared religious culture (if you like). If you have a community setting that can work that way , brilliant. But, just because your local community is Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist, or whatever, doesn't mean you should turn your back on it and go off in search of a commune idyll. Where is the honour in that? You bring honour to the tribe by caring for people in your community, cleaning your local litter, helping with the old lady nextdoor's shopping.
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Post by arth_frown on Sept 25, 2008 8:29:53 GMT -1
I doubt that we need to ask Druids why they what to be as such. It's just wasted energy, far better to seperate ourseleves and get on with what we want.
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Post by Lee on Sept 25, 2008 9:45:25 GMT -1
I doubt that we need to ask Druids why they what to be as such. It's just wasted energy, far better to seperate ourseleves and get on with what we want. yeah, but it would be in the spirit of the event.
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Post by potia on Sept 25, 2008 17:20:46 GMT -1
During the last couple of days I've been doing a lot of thinking about what I would like to see come out of the Flag Fen gathering and here are my thoughts. I think it's likely that everyone there will have sympathy with Stefan's statement that there is something wrong with the current standing of modern druidry. I've seen it discussed in more than one place with comments like "The term Druid doesn't really mean anything anymore" and "Druidry has become too open". I sympathise with these statements myself but at the same time I accept that many people are drawn to this open type of druidry. I think there are three choices concerning terminology before those that will gather: 1) drop the use of the term druid and druidry altogether and adopt some other terminology with clear guidance on what the chosen terms mean 2) Attempt to reclaim the term Druid and make it more meaningful 3) continue to complain and not do anything. I doubt that option 3 will be chosen by many of those that will gather at Flag Fen - I don't think folk would attend if they didn't want to see something change. I personally am not sure if I would prefer option 1 or option 2 to be taken up. In either case I'd like to see a small group nominated to work on developing terminology as well as definitions in terms of what would be expected of people aspiring to whatever the terms chosen are. I think those chosen should cover a range of perspectives and be willing to take on this tricky task Regardiing the discussions on tribe and community. My understanding of a tribe is that it can be a collection of families and individuals with a shared purpose or a collection of folk with blood ties. And community can have many definitions but I think the bonds of loyalty and trust are weaker in a community than a tribe - a personal gut feeling. I think most of us will be members of more than one community and probably more than one tribe. The development of tribes and communities is a gradual one but it maybe that the Flag Fen gathering could be the first gathering of groups that will develop into tribes. I'd like to see a committment to gather again come out of the meeting - perhaps on an annual basis? A council of tribes perhaps? I'd also like to see some level of good communication between the parties involved in the meeting and those who can't attend but will be interested in developments set up - a mailing list perhaps? One of the things that seems to be emphasised to me in Stefan's statement is relationships with gods. I'd like those who have strong relationships with their gods to agree to talk or write about their relationships so that those of seeking to deepen or find their own relationships with the gods can learn about ways and means of doing so. I know that what works with one god may not work with another but there are probably some things that do cross boundaries like ways of developing listening skills and ways of making offerings. For what it's worth I am willing to step up to the line on this one myself although I'm not sure my relationships with my gods are that strong as yet I think I'm waffling now but anyway those are some of the things I've been thinking about over the last couple of days for what it's worth. Blessings Potia.
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Post by redraven on Sept 25, 2008 19:06:00 GMT -1
Whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, the majority of us here were drawn to druidry for a variety of reasons that were important to us at that time. The more we have learnt, it has become apparent that the modern definition is missing something, hence Stefan's message is resonating with us. The more that is written about the subject, the more vague and ambiguous becomes the subject matter. Speaking personally, and using nature as my inspiration, what I find to be lacking is form. Form that defines what it is that we seek, form that provides a method to walk the path to that definition and form that provides some boundaries within which to learn and grow, to create a common set of conditions that allow us to share our experiences within our tribe. In my opinion, what makes this community different to a lot of other neo-pagan groups is our willingness to adopt and integrate the latest scientific revelations, if they are found to be appropriate, and thus develop our own ideas and values. I think that any "new" group should have it's feet based firmly in this approach, willing to evaluate any new information to provide an evolving "form" with which to use as a base. What we have to be careful about is not to become of society of left hemisphere users, in constant denial of the role of the right hemisphere, as is present in some "other" fora and groups.
RR
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Post by Heron on Sept 25, 2008 19:21:05 GMT -1
whatever comes of the Flag Fen meeting the ideas preparing for it have generated on here would make it worthwhile in itself. Particularly the will to create a community - be that a 'tribe' or whatever else. It's an ideal I once had but then became disillusioned about.
Will this dispel my disillusion I wonder?
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Post by arth_frown on Sept 25, 2008 19:39:43 GMT -1
I think there are three choices concerning terminology before those that will gather: 1) drop the use of the term druid and druidry altogether and adopt some other terminology with clear guidance on what the chosen terms mean 2) Attempt to reclaim the term Druid and make it more meaningful 3) continue to complain and not do anything. Option one is the most viable. We can't reclaim the word Druid far too much water has gone under that bridge. We don't have the power or right to tell anyone who can be or not be a Druid or what they can or can not do. Start a new tradition and let Druids join if they see that the description fits. Option three is a danger that we might be getting into, which will only make us look negative.
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Post by Tegernacus on Sept 25, 2008 19:49:42 GMT -1
to me, druid has always brought images of going to eisteddfods. and that's where druida belong really, as keepers of tradition, of culture, of song and prose. Of course the old druids were pagan : but so were the blacksmiths, wheelrights, jewellry makers, fishermen...
Modern pagan druids aren't the keepers of tradition, culture, song and prose, cos half of them don't even know what tradition they're supposed to be keeping.
So yeah.. a new name, a new class, a new structure...
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Post by clare on Sept 27, 2008 12:36:54 GMT -1
For what it's worth . . .
I've just got back from a couple of days at Turvey Abbey, a convant and monastry in Berkshire for a workshop on Home, Homelessness and Community. We stayed an extra night so that we could continue to soak up the ambiance.
It's a Benedictine Order - Work and Prayer - where homeless people are particularly welcome. They pray 5 times a day and live simply. Hospitality is central, and they work on what community really is - easy when we all like each other, rather less so when someone comes along that you don't like.
There's a lot to be learned from monastic orders. Yes, they have respectability from the idea of The Church but they often have to fight with that Church and with people like the charidee commission about having all kinds of paperwork in order, and with locals who don't like the idea of the homeless.
Anything is possible.
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Post by jez on Oct 1, 2008 6:42:37 GMT -1
And are the Brythonic community (family, tribe or whatever) going to stick with the word 'druid' or adopt another?
If only druids can come to the Brythonic path, then what of those who find Epona and others through a different direction?
--
Jez - heathen and putter of Bengal-crosses amongst sacred white doves...
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Post by Lee on Oct 1, 2008 8:20:55 GMT -1
And are the Brythonic community (family, tribe or whatever) going to stick with the word 'druid' or adopt another? If only druids can come to the Brythonic path, then what of those who find Epona and others through a different direction? -- Jez - heathen and putter of Bengal-crosses amongst sacred white doves... persoanlly i would prefer it dropped for the foreseeable future. i dont think anyone is suggesting that you need to be a druid or on a brythonic path to have a relationship with Epona - besides, she was Gaulish. us brythons have other gods
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 1, 2008 9:12:17 GMT -1
Yes, that's exactly the point - a relationship with the gods doesn't make you a druid!
I agree though, that we've missed the boat by about 200 years regarding 'druid'. These days, it means lots of different things to different people, rightly or wrongly. There are many out there who have a huge emotional and spiritual investment in the word. Like it or not, we don't have the authority to hold the only allowable definition.
However, as far as Brython goes, I do think that we can apply the word 'druid' in a far more specific way. Ditching it altogether is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is a need in any religious community for someone to officiate during rites of passage, religious ceremonies, to advise on matters of law etc. But also of value within that community are the people who make stuff, grow stuff and fix stuff.
That's for Brython though - I don't think we need a moral crusade against neo-druidry! Better to lead by example and offer people an alternative, which has always been my intention.
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Post by Lee on Oct 1, 2008 9:54:00 GMT -1
I don't think we need a moral crusade against neo-druidry! . packs away pitchforks
put the lid back on the barrels of warming tar
calls up Torquemada solutions Ltd and tells them that due to unforseen circumstances we wil not require thier services next week.
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Post by Lee on Oct 1, 2008 9:58:35 GMT -1
i agree on this totally, i just think that for now Druid is put to bed for a while until uch a time as we need it again. tribe and community first, then we can worry about priests.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 1, 2008 12:48:06 GMT -1
i dont think anyone is suggesting that you need to be a druid or on a brythonic path to have a relationship with Epona - besides, she was Gaulish. us brythons have other gods According to Miranda Green, Epona was worshipped in southern Britain.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 1, 2008 12:49:46 GMT -1
Yes, that's exactly the point - a relationship with the gods doesn't make you a druid! I agree though, that we've missed the boat by about 200 years regarding 'druid'. These days, it means lots of different things to different people, rightly or wrongly. There are many out there who have a huge emotional and spiritual investment in the word. Like it or not, we don't have the authority to hold the only allowable definition. However, as far as Brython goes, I do think that we can apply the word 'druid' in a far more specific way. Ditching it altogether is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is a need in any religious community for someone to officiate during rites of passage, religious ceremonies, to advise on matters of law etc. But also of value within that community are the people who make stuff, grow stuff and fix stuff. That's for Brython though - I don't think we need a moral crusade against neo-druidry! Better to lead by example and offer people an alternative, which has always been my intention. If are going to call ourselves The Brython Tradition then we need to have clear boundaries to what we are.
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Post by jez on Oct 1, 2008 17:34:20 GMT -1
Epona is active in the New Forest, and at Arbor Low in the Peak.
Almost certainly, elsewhere as well.
--
Jez - who remembers.
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Post by redraven on Oct 1, 2008 18:15:39 GMT -1
And are the Brythonic community (family, tribe or whatever) going to stick with the word 'druid' or adopt another? I dropped the "druid" title ages ago. There's too little historical evidence about them to warrant it for myself. However, I have to recognize the part that the title played in the place I find myself now, so whereas I can understand why some want to drop the title, it should remain open as a path into what is being proposed, though not "the" only path. If only druids can come to the Brythonic path, then what of those who find Epona and others through a different direction? -- Jez - heathen and putter of Bengal-crosses amongst sacred white doves... I would be in favour of trying to make this as inclusive as possible and preferring to judge people on the results of their participation and not so much their method of participation. Lets try to not fall into the all too common trait of neo-pagan groups and start to push our own methods forward as "the " only correct way. RR
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Post by oghma on Oct 2, 2008 17:09:34 GMT -1
Why not just call yourselves Brythonic Heathens?
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