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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 3, 2008 6:20:30 GMT -1
Hea' then: haithno [Gothic], hæthen [Anglo-Saxon], heide [German], mistranslation by the Gothic Bishop Ulfilas (4th century c.e.) of hethanos [Armoric], heathen, by association with haithi [Gothic], heath, thence the folk etymology of heathen as "wasteland dwellers" developed by other Germanic languages. Then, heathen refers to anyone not of the Abrahamic religions, especially a member of a tribe, nation, etc. worshiping many gods. Historically used by Christians to describe others with different beliefs as barbaric, godless, and irreligious. sourceRegardless of etymology, "Heathen" has been taken up by the Heathen religions and traditions, which while similar (to the outsider) to ours, deal with different gods, of different lands. Theirs is a noble tradition that I, personally, wouldn't dream of hijacking. It's like saying to a Welshman "why not call yourself English? You dress the same..." lol ;D
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Post by Lee on Oct 3, 2008 6:25:05 GMT -1
Perhaps I might make some observations. As far as I can see the assumptions behind this initiative are: 1) It is desirable to return to the spirituality of pre-Roman Britain, arguably the last purely native religion of this land. nope, though these are its roots. it is the starting point. the Romans do have plenty to offer, as they tended to merge their own gods with local ones e can still learn from them. we can even look a bit later to fnd inspiration - the mabinogion for one. also later folk customs and traditions can offer support. the key to bear in mind is that even after all of this, we live in the 21st C and whatever we rebuild must be relevant rather than anachronistic. see the thread about passing a drinking cup. [quote author=oghma board=Table thread=927 post=10435 time=12229827672) The only way to do this is to refer to the available evidence from the last known religion practiced in this island and to fill in the gaps with gnosis. [/quote] yes and no, there is plenty to be learned from much later material. gnosis comes in at a later point, but even then we see it as ideal to share gnosis, compare and discuss. it is this sharing of gnosis and personal experince that is key. [quote author=oghma board=Table thread=927 post=10435 time=12229827673) In order to do this it is necessary to disregard the religious history of these islands since 43 BCE, including previous attempts to revive said religion. Is this a fair summary?[/quote] nope. the romano-british religion has plenty to offer. what came later also has something to offer. not all of it mind you. previous attempts to revive the religion - well, personally i dont think they have worked and have flaws. we can perhaps learn how not to do it this time.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 3, 2008 6:37:05 GMT -1
previous attempts at revival have been taken from "the Christian guidebook to the Celtic romances", all misty-Avalon and noble-savage. This attempt is based on fact, archaeology, anthropology, picking apart literature (not just taking it at face value), discerning the small slivers of light from the fog of history. The Romans have much to teach us, as do the early "Celtic" Christians, as does folk-tradition. It could be said that discarding the "romance" is losing the magic. Well, if it means losing the fantasy, then so be it.
Conversely, I don't see this as some Christian reformation type thing, destroying the idols and cathedrals. If I was a Christian, I would be a Catholic, as that is the earliest, longest tradition. If you like we're doing the reverse, destroying the modern Christianity in order to find what's left of the Roman-Catholic. When we work out how to get priests that can bring any meaning to the word, then we'll have them. Until then, remove them.
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Post by Lee on Oct 3, 2008 8:44:25 GMT -1
we need this made inot a large neon sign and emblazoned across the roundhouse at Flag fen next weekend.
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Post by Adam on Oct 3, 2008 8:57:40 GMT -1
Conversely, I don't see this as some Christian reformation type thing, destroying the idols and cathedrals. If I was a Christian, I would be a Catholic, as that is the earliest, longest tradition. If you like we're doing the reverse, destroying the modern Christianity in order to find what's left of the Roman-Catholic. When we work out how to get priests that can bring any meaning to the word, then we'll have them. Until then, remove them. Catholicism may be the oldest surviving tradition for a number of reasons, but there have been attempts at reconstructing earlier, pre-catholic styles of christianity... admittedly, not a subject I know a lot about (*from the list of things one least expects Dr Jonathon Miller to say *), but I can certainly find out from my Baptist firend who has spent time studying these things... Point is, in my understanding even Christianity has experienced the urge to get closer to source through forms of reconstructionism
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Post by oghma on Oct 3, 2008 9:15:45 GMT -1
I can see more clearly where this is coming from now. I can also see a genuine desire to not make what are perceived as being the "mistakes" of perevious attempts, one of these being held to be Rvivlaist Druidry.
On another post, I can'ty find which, someone referred to (paraphrase) doing away with the theology of the last 2000 years. How is this compatible with the desire to be inclusive of beliefs held in this island since the Roman invasion? (I'll add which post it was when I find it)
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Post by oghma on Oct 3, 2008 9:18:51 GMT -1
Regardless of etymology, "Heathen" has been taken up by the Heathen religions and traditions, which while similar (to the outsider) to ours, deal with different gods, of different lands. Theirs is a noble tradition that I, personally, wouldn't dream of hijacking. It's like saying to a Welshman "why not call yourself English? You dress the same..." lol ;D Now I do get what you are saying here. I guess what I am suggesting is that "Heathen" might be said to refer to a broader category of beliefs, or might evolve to do so. In the meantime, might one not argue that when using a germanic language such as English, the word "Heathen" could be seen as the most appropriate one in that language? I say that, bear in mind, as someone who actually prefers Pagan as a word.
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Post by Lee on Oct 3, 2008 10:16:30 GMT -1
Now I do get what you are saying here. I guess what I am suggesting is that "Heathen" might be said to refer to a broader category of beliefs, or might evolve to do so. In the meantime, might one not argue that when using a germanic language such as English, the word "Heathen" could be seen as the most appropriate one in that language? I say that, bear in mind, as someone who actually prefers Pagan as a word. Brythonic Pagan suffices. Brythonic Tradition too. Throwing in Heathen at this stage muddies the waters.
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Post by jez on Oct 3, 2008 10:43:33 GMT -1
'Heathens' is taken, and it would confuse people immensely to have several (admittedly related) paths named the same.
The problem we all have is that there was never a name for the religions we practise, because it was just what we all did.
The name is only needed when there is a confusion, and that came when a new religion tried to supplant (rather than co-exist).
The heathens came to Britain after the local religion had become Christianity, and we don't have any recorded OE word for the Brythonic tradition that may or may not have still been hanging on in what then became England.
But a word simply meaning Belief from a Brythonic language might solve the problem of what it was called?
--
Jez
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Post by jez on Oct 3, 2008 10:48:59 GMT -1
Oh, and the term Heithni from the Icelandic tradition was adopted by the heathens, by their own choice, in the year 1000 when the country became officially Christian after the (heathen) Lawspeaker went under the cloak for three days to decide what should be the result of the political problem that being heathen in a world becoming increasingly Christian (and not trading with heathens) was posing. One dodgy etymology is that it comes from the word for 'bright' -- Jez
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Post by Craig on Oct 3, 2008 11:45:52 GMT -1
'Brython' suits me fine. It is simple, it is descriptive. As for the grouping of non-Christian native religions I have always thought that the term 'British Native Religions' works. It covers the brythons, druids, witches, heathens and uncle Tom Cobbley too
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Post by oghma on Oct 3, 2008 17:34:49 GMT -1
One dodgy etymology is that it comes from the word for 'bright' Which, stangely enough, has recently has been adopted by some atheists as a more positive label. Personally I think it's poo.
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Post by clare on Oct 3, 2008 22:03:36 GMT -1
Hi Oghma, do we know each other from a dim and distant past?
Having watched the discussion here I'm aware of a couple of things (which may be obvious to everyone else: I can be a bit slow!) I'm very happy to be corrected, btw, it feels like a process of orientation.
There's a desire for regional authenticity and authenticity of personal and group spiritual practice.
There's a desire to avoid the celebrity, fluff and pseudo-priesthoods that some other Paganisms embrace.
As far as I'm aware, in practice, other than different names and perhaps different ways of performing solo and group workings, these are the basis' upon which most Paganisms (and a great many other religions) want to function. That's not a criticism but an observation which can be wrong. I'm excited by the idea of a revivification of Paganisms in general and Druidry in particular, but I'm unsure of how, in practice, this might be envisioned by CF.
It's really difficult to walk the line between offering gentle hints about how it's nice to be nice and legislating over what it means to be a member of a defined group. My husbands family are Mormon and whilst their temple has a full range of human nature from absolutely decent people to loons, everyone, *everyone* pays their tithes. Everyone is further involved in some kind of church based useful activity - putting toiletries in shoeboxes to send to disaster areas (without a label saying With love From The Mormons on it!) being involved in an internal and external welfare system, their lives revolve around their beliefs.
They have a strict sense of principals, sets of rules, ideals, singular, direct, one theology. While they're busy doing some really good stuff, Pagans don't do very much at all. Planting a tree is seen to be a higher calling. Yes, there're problems with organised religion. Paganism has overstated them.
So, with the 11th approaching, what are we going to take to Flag Fen? What is the fundamental difference between Brythonic Paganism and all the other Paganisms?
(Genuine question rather than a challenge.)
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Post by oghma on Oct 3, 2008 22:24:23 GMT -1
Hi Oghma, do we know each other from a dim and distant past? It's entirely possible. My usual name is cursuswalker. One might call these inevitable results of any unregulated religion. I was a founder member of a Druid grove that was founded upon principles of equality. We paid a great deal of attention to how to make sure that every member of the grove felt fairly dealt with, while preserving the integrity of the grove from the whims of the individual. You know what ended up happening? The grove was so successful at respecting the diverging paths of its members that it tried to accomodate both an atheist druid and a brython (who is a major member of this forum and still a good friend). The grove was eventually torn apart by its own tolerance. Is this a compliment to it or not? You decide. This is the best aspect of such doctrinal beliefs. But Paganism has rarely been about such moral unity. Neo-Paganism, as it should be called, has always been more orthopraxic than orthodoxic. Y'know....I have this sneaking feeling that all that is going to happen is something that has happened before. After all, druids were arrested at Stonehenge during the First World War. But that is not to say it does not need to happen.
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 5, 2008 16:29:34 GMT -1
Perhaps. If so, then at least we'll have tried. I think success at the meeting will depend on what we hope to achieve. If we try to set the entire world to rights, we will doubtless fail However, if we can agree on a few simple strategies or goals, then hopefully we'll go away with something useful to work with. Let's also remember that this is Stefan's meeting, and he may well have a completely different set of agenda for it, regardless of what we might want out of it. The big question is simple: "Lots of things in modern druidry suck. What are we going to do about it?" There are two main solutions. Firstly, to educate and secondly to lead by example. There's no point us all chuntering about it if we're not going to get off our backsides and do something. That means being visible, both in the pagan and wider communities. That means developing the Brython website, perhaps helping Stefan to push his course. It may mean discussing an alliance between the AC and Brython - strength in numbers, and more visibility in numbers. It may mean working towards producing hard copy literature, speaking at conferences or organising public events. I think if we can agree on and discuss some broad strategies (sorry to sound like a bloody politician!), that would be better than getting bogged down in minutiae.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 5, 2008 17:46:07 GMT -1
BB, it's not about sounding like a politician, if this thing is serious then people are going to have to start ACTING like politicians. (not the dodgy spin-doctory kind, the committed, organised, visible and accessible kind)
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Post by Craig on Oct 5, 2008 18:04:00 GMT -1
I agree totally with BB in all that she has said - but I'm looking to take it a step further.
Many people come to druidry and the other native British religions because they are not only seeking an alternative outlet for their spirituality, but also because they are dissatisfied with the nature, direction and pace of our 'modern' society.
Despite the glories of our 'civilisation' our society and family structures have suffered enormously since the industrial revolution. Don't get me wrong I am not a Golden Age dreamer, but I do believe we need to seek a new model for our lives and perhaps the one that might serve is that of the Tribe.
Thus I seek not only to explore the opportunities that the brythonic religion could offer, but also to bring together people who also wish to create a Tribe. An interdependent network of people who respect each other and wish to support each other through thick and thin.
Hmm...
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Post by Lee on Oct 5, 2008 20:41:50 GMT -1
we could get 'brythonic' recognised on the next census (calm down Craig ) if we wanted, we can provide it as a viable repsonse that people might put down to the question of belief. we can get an article put in a prominent pagan magazine talking about Brython and what it means to be brythonic. really, there are a number of ways we can get our 'message' out there. i am more than willing to help out on those fronts.
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Post by oghma on Oct 5, 2008 21:34:09 GMT -1
we could get 'brythonic' recognised on the next census (calm down Craig ) if we wanted, we can provide it as a viable repsonse that people might put down to the question of belief. we can get an article put in a prominent pagan magazine talking about Brython and what it means to be brythonic. really, there are a number of ways we can get our 'message' out there. i am more than willing to help out on those fronts. Any response to the religion question is a recognised response. All beliefs with 100,000 adherents or more, according to best information, get their own tick-box. Others have to be written in. The Census authorities got a shock last time when 30,000 people put down "pagan", with a further 10,000 writing in other pagan traditions. There is a campaign called Pagan Dash that aims to persuade pagans of all flavours to put down "pagan" followed by their specific path as the authorities will apparently then count them as a larger group as well as detailing the sub-groups. www.pagandash.org/If enough people put down "Brythonic" then that will be noted in the official figures. As well as "Pagan - Brythonic". Without the Pagan tag the authorities may not realise what is meant by the word Brythonic. Just xomething to bear in mind. I aim to get my site with all the figures for the 2001 religion question up again soon, in praparation for the 2011 census, as I have a license to publish the detailed figures.
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