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Post by megli on Oct 24, 2008 7:25:20 GMT -1
Some ideas.
If you want to get back to a resonably accurate idea of the gods of the ancient Britons (and the religious feelings coded within their names) then I think the very first thing Brython should be looking at - before the Mabinogi, before Irish medieval literature, long before (Gods help us) The Golden Bough, and long, long before folklore - is Roman Britain.
We have a staggering number of Brythonic theonyms surviving from the Roman occupation, often linked with a Roman theonym that gives us some idea of the functional slot in which people who actually worshipped these gods saw them as falling.
People here talk about *Rigantona all the time, and quite right too - but though her name can be reconstructed via comparative linguistics with great confidence, we have no actually record of her worship or any beliefs about her at all. Compare Sulis, about whom we have a vast amount of information in comparison. There is no doubt that she was an ancestral Brythonic deity, her name is good Brythonic ('Sun' or possibly 'Eye') and we even have direct records of the kinds of prayers Romano-British people brought to her and thus thought she was good for.
Nodons, Camulos, Belatucadros, Coc(c)idios, Sulis, Brigantia, Lugos, Vindo(no)s, Maponos, Matrona, Sabrina, Senua, the Triple Matres...much better than arguing about whether Pwyll is a god* (not that people do that here, but it seems to be a commonplace elsewhere).
I propose a really thorough getting to grips with the religion of Roman-Britain (especially its epigraphy) as a fruitful line of enquiry for Brython.
* Short answer: No.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 7:50:13 GMT -1
absolutely, and that was suggested a while back. I posted a bit about the Vagniacis temple a while back (and no-one seemed to take any notice lol). Stuff like that is far more worthy of our time, as with a bit of detective work it is easy to see what is Roman and so, by inference, what is not. here's a good list to start us off: www.roman-britain.org/rbgods.htmcross out the imported gods (whether from Rome or Germany or whatever) and it's still a large list.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 24, 2008 7:51:27 GMT -1
Yes Romano-Britain is where I look as well, though I must admit that I have never read the Mabinogi. A good source for Romano-British gods www.roman-britain.org/rbgods.htm I suppose if the gods name is not found anywhere else in the Roman empire then it must be British or and Gaul.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 24, 2008 7:53:38 GMT -1
absolutely, and that was suggested a while back. I posted a bit about the Vagniacis temple a while back (and no-one seemed to take any notice lol). Stuff like that is far more worthy of our time, as with a bit of detective work it is easy to see what is Roman and so, by inference, what is not. here's a good list to start us off: www.roman-britain.org/rbgods.htmcross out the imported gods (whether from Rome or Germany or whatever) and it's still a large list. LOL we posted the same link. BTW I looked at Vagniacis temple it is intresting.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 8:01:39 GMT -1
heheh great minds think alike. It's hardly exhaustive, or indepth, but it's a start. I'm sure we can build on it.
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Post by megli on Oct 24, 2008 8:15:20 GMT -1
Well, this material is quite well researched - there's a vast series of tomes about Aquae Sulis, for example, surveying all the material.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 8:23:42 GMT -1
I've been looking into (over the years) Ocelus Vellaunus, which occurs on an inscription at Caerwent. I thought Ocelus is a kind of local Mars-ish god, but Mars also occurs on the inscription "Mars Lenus" so maybe he isn't. Vellaunus... I think it's Gaulish. Any ideas?
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 24, 2008 8:29:47 GMT -1
I think the Mars name means it's comparable to local God rather than the same God.
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Post by megli on Oct 24, 2008 8:44:30 GMT -1
I've been looking into (over the years) Ocelus Vellaunus, which occurs on an inscription at Caerwent. I thought Ocelus is a kind of local Mars-ish god, but Mars also occurs on the inscription "Mars Lenus" so maybe he isn't. Vellaunus... I think it's Gaulish.
Gaulish and British were effectively the same language. There are loads of different Marses (Martes!) - it's not a one-on-one thing. Mars Toutatis, Mars Camulos, Mars this, Mars that...
Unfortunately I have little idea what either of the elements of Ocelus Vellaunus mean. (I suspect Vellaunus must mean something like 'excelling, exceedingly good [one]' because it looks like it's related to W. gwell, 'better', but that's an informed guess.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 8:57:26 GMT -1
do you think maybe Vellaunus is the same word that occurs in the Catuvellauni tribe, and also in Cassivellaunus? Looks the same. Maybe a tribal god.
(interesting, because Cassivellaunus apparently appears in Geoffrey as Cassibelanus)
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Post by megli on Oct 24, 2008 8:58:30 GMT -1
Oh, undoubtedly! (The Geoffrey spelling is medieval and not to be worried about btw).
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Post by Craig on Oct 24, 2008 11:49:21 GMT -1
I just love it when you egg-heads get your thing on - go for it
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 11:53:04 GMT -1
LMAO!! Me too Craig!!
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Post by megli on Oct 24, 2008 11:56:32 GMT -1
'Egg-heads'?!
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Post by Adam on Oct 24, 2008 12:10:48 GMT -1
yeah... what is the etymology of...'Egg-heads'?
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 12:12:21 GMT -1
He means on the inside, not the outside. You've got hair. So have I (rushes out to comb it over). There! hmmm... according to www.celtnet.org.uk/gods_i/icovellauna.html, the Gaulish god Icovellauna means "water pourer" or something, due to them making the leap from -vella- to gwallaw (to pour or empty). Is that crap? That would make him/her the God of pouring water, or the God of Excellent water, or the God of Excellence.. or .. wait, I'm confusing myself now. I think what would be better is if we had a new sub-forum, and discussed these names on an individual basis, or they are going to get lost in general forumness. Any chance BB/LR? (We can discuss not only their names, but the places and sites associated with them then.)
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Post by megli on Oct 24, 2008 12:30:00 GMT -1
I honestly don't know. I'll get out D Ellis Evans' book on Gaulish personal names (yawn) which will do just as well for British theonyms.
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Post by aelfarh on Oct 24, 2008 15:14:58 GMT -1
How about Britannia. Do you consider her the spirit of the Island, a goddess or just the Roman name given to the land.
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 24, 2008 16:24:09 GMT -1
Okedoke, I'll put another sub-section up for you.
Btw, for any of this stuff, I'd really recommend 'Gods With Thunderbolts' by Guy De La Bedoyere. It's a good introduction to Romano-British religion, has information on shrines, various gods, iconography, epigraphy and so forth.
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