Brigit, Brid, Bride, Bridey, Brigantia

[Craig]

This is where I need my pet academics ;D

Can we conflate these names to be representative of one goddess?

The reason I ask is that these are all names which I have been permitted to use for the goddess with whom I have done the most work.

[Deleted]

I would be very interested to see if this is the case. The Brigit who appears to me has, so far, not shown traits that would link her to Brigantia for me. I'm new to dealing with her though so perhaps that side will come later.

[megli]

This is best addressed by starting with the names.

We have a Romano-British goddess, whose (lightly Latinised) name was Brigantia. The original British form would have been *Briganti (this is a 'feminine i-stem' to the grammarians among you.) She seems to have been the tutelary goddess of the Brigantes, that is, the 'People of the Goddess Briganti'. The name means 'Exalted'.

A people called the Brigantes are also attested in south eastern Ireland in Ptolemy's Map (prob. reflecting the situation around 100AD): they may be ethnically same people as the British Brigantes, some of the latter perhaps having crossed the Irish sea around the birth of Christ, bringing their deity and name with them. This is quite possible: the Northern Irish/south-west Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata, established around 500AD, would offer a parallel for a single people migrating so that they were afterwards found on both sides of the Irish sea. (On the other hand, there were a Swiss group of Celts around lake Constanz who were called 'Brigantii', 'The people of the Exalted Goddess', so it may just be coincindence.)

But, interestingly, it is in south-eastern Ireland that the cult of St Brigit is strong - she is always pre-eminently the saint of Leinster. And Old Irish Brigit comes from older Celtic *Briganti, via an intermediary *Brigenti. So the ancient form of the name of the name of the Leinster saint and the name of the British 'exalted goddess' are identical, and given the location of the pre-Christian Brigantes in the area, people have long suggested that Brigit is a carefully-managed Christianised continuation of the pre-Christian goddess Briganti, and that it reflects the patronage of an important Leinster people called the Ui Dunlainge. This, I think, is perfectly tenable and sensible.

Later forms like Brid and Brighid are just later Irish spellings of Old Irish Brigit. (Middle Irish Brighid, Modern Irish Brid, with an acute accent on the -i-.) Bridey and Bride are anglicised forms of the latter, which is of course a common Irish girl's name to this day.

Pronunciations:

Brigit: BRIGH-id [gh is a gargling sound like -ch-, but further back in the throat, like you're trying to hawk up]
Brighid: BREE-yid
Brid: BREED.

So ultimately, Craig, the question is this: if the Brigantes (in Britain and their possibly related namesakes in Ireland) both honoured a goddess they called Briganti, are these Brigantis the *same* goddess, or two separate goddess who just happen to share the same name? I personally like the idea that some British Brigantes shipped over to Ireland in the 1st century BC/AD - possibly as a response to Roman pressure - and brought Briganti with them. So I'd say, yes, I think Brigit and Brigantia are very probably 'the same goddess'.

Even if one does not accept the idea that she might have moved to Ireland with a population emigration, in spiritual terms, why couldn't a goddess decide - like Allah in the Qu'ran - that she is hidden treasure who longs to be known, and thus separately make herself manifest to different peoples in Ireland and in Britain (and on the continent?)

[arth_frown]

There is a river Bride in Dorset

www.burtonbradstock.org.uk/History/C%20J%20Baileys%20The%20Bride%20Valley/The%20Natural%20Setting.htm

[megli]

My instinct says that can't be to do with Briganti(a) - Briganti(a) in British would have given neo-Brithonic forms like Braint and Brent (both attested as river names, of course!).* The loss of the cluster -nt- (BrigaNTi to BrigIT) is a characteristically Irish feature, which didnt occur in the British branch of the Celtic languages.

* The subsequent etymologies of the latter on Wikipedia are totally wrong btw - using a book from 1805!

[arth_frown]

Spoil sport!

[potia]

There are snippets about Brigit in Scottish folktales givinig her the role of Queen of the Summer and linking her to the Cailleach. I can go into more details if you want but you may be already familiar with them.

I also know a nice hymn to Brigit in Gaelic too. First time I heard it sung by Fiona Davidson it sent shivers up my spine and I knew I had to learn it. Fiona very kindly sent me a CD of another group singing it which also had the words in the cover so I was able to learn it and sing it for the next Imbolc. It went down well with all present seen and unseen.

[Craig]

Thanks Megli

[aelfarh]

I have read that a possible ethymology of the name comes from the Irish Brig (power, strenght) or from the word Breó (flame, fire) which in either case are attributes of the Goddess, as a solar and powerful Goddess. Also is interesting that there are some association with Brí the female Brehon encounter on the mythologies, whose association maybe give Brighid associations with poetry laws and writing, as seen today. (or you can say that the Goddess name give rise to that words, just matter of perspective, of course)

Even when I agree with megli on the cult of St. Brigid on Leinster to be strong, it's worth to say that also in the North west is very strong, specially on Dún na nGall (Donegal) from what I could watch on my travelings to that place.

[Heron]

Any comment on the transition to Ffraid in Welsh? Simply an adaption of Breed?

[Heron]

Oct 29, 2008 15:45:23 GMT -1 potia said:

I also know a nice hymn to Brigit in Gaelic too. First time I heard it sung by Fiona Davidson it sent shivers up my spine and I knew I had to learn it. Fiona very kindly sent me a CD of another group singing it which also had the words in the cover so I was able to learn it and sing it for the next Imbolc. It went down well with all present seen and unseen.

I wouldn't mind hearing that. What's the album called Potia?

[potia]

Ain't You tube wonderful. I've found it on You tube at: uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AhNEzKxRBis

This is the version I got sent by Fiona, the Gaelic being the older aspect of the song. Fiona sang the Gaelic aspect with harp which as you can imagine gave a very different feel. I sing the Gaelic only and to a much slower pace than this version but it's still a powerful song.

[megli]

I'm not doing well with this time out thing.

Yes, Heron, Ffraid is just a - slightly idiosyncratic - borrowing of Brigit/Brighid. The cult of Brigit spread to Wales in the 7th century, if not earlier. The name was first borrowed into Welsh in the form 'Braid' - our earliest 'Llansanffraid' occurs in the form 'Lann Sanbregit' in 'The Book of Lan Dav'. Why the lenited form of braid, that is, fraid, should get devoiced to ffraid/ffraed, I'm not sure.

[Have worked it out. If borrowed as santbregit from Irish, as the Book of Lan Dav form suggests, then the t- of 'sant' before a lenited b (i.e. v) would devoice it to ff. santbregit /santvreghid/ --> sanffreid, san ffraed. Yippee.]

But in Wales the Christian form of the name, 'Braid' (later Ffraed) was, because borrowed from Irish, quite distinct from the native Welsh form of the name, i.e. Braint, as in the river on Anglesey.

Yes, the cult of Brigit is strong throughout Ireland historically, but the core of the cult was always Leinster (the saga Cath Almaine, 'The Battle of Allen', makes it clear that the Leinstermen saw Brigit as especially 'their' saint.)

Interesting observation. Brigit largely stays in one place in the saints lives associated with her. Patrick, on the other hand, is constantly going on circuits of territory. Therefore....Brigit is kind of like a sovereignty goddess.... and Patrick is rather like a king..... :0

Aelfarh, I think the correct cognate of Brigit is Brig (also attested as a personal name, sometimes interchangeable with Brigit) and not breo, which is a different word.

[aelfarh]

Hiyah Megli

I'm not expert on etymologies, nor Gaelic. But maybe, the word Breó could have some significance. As for this references:

[...] and Brigit, that was a woman of poetry, and poets worshipped her, for her sway was very great and very noble. And she was a woman of healing along with that, and a woman of smith's work, and it was she first made the whistle for calling one to another through the night. And' the one side of her face was ugly, but the other side was very comely. And the meaning of her name was Breo-saighit, a fiery arrow.

Lady Augusta Gregory, Gods and Fighting Men, Part I, Book I


[...] Now Brighid is the equivalent to Breo-shaighead, that is, an arrow of fire ; and
she is not inaptly so called, for she was as a fire lighting
with the love of God.

Geoffrey Keating, History of Ireland; Section VI

As a solar Goddess, whose attributes could be related with the "fire of inspiration" for poetry, law, writing, etc. and as she is also related to Smiths, who use the fire to make their crafts, could be (I'm guessing now) that Breó (fire), Brí (word) and Brig (power) are all etymologically related and, furthermore, related to the Goddess itself.

As, for the name Brig, it somehow debatable that the female Brehon, the "judge" Brig is mythologically mixed with the Goddess, Bríg Brethach Ni Sencha, was famous because she corrected his father who was consider one of the better jurist of his time in a sentence involving women's methods of claiming a land.

[...] "A false judgment may even have physical side-effects on the judge responsible. The cheeks of the legendary judge Sencha are said to have become blotched when he pronounced a biased judgement (cilbreth) regarding legal entry by women. The blotches disappeared, however, when Brig passed a true judgment (fírbreth) on the matter.

Fergus Kelly, A Guide to Early Irish Law, in the section about Brithem


Now, for this attributes is also possible that when Caesar refers to the Gaulish worship to Minerva, was he referring to Brighid?

[megli]

Re: Minerva, I should think so. I also think Sul[-is] was prbably one British version of the same deity.

Bri and Breo are different words to Brig and are not, to the best of my knowledge, related to either to Brig/Brigit or to each other. I shall check in Vendryes' 'Lexique Etymologique d'Irlandais Ancien', but my professional instinct says 'no'. (Brig and Brigit are related and are prone to interchangeability in old Irish sources.)

There is a legal Brig - Brig ambue, 'the female expert of the men iof Ireland in wisdom and prudence' as she's termed in the pseudo-historical prologue to the Senchus Mar. Presumably this mythical Brig became indentified later on as a daughter of the prime judge of the Ulstermen, Sencha mac Aillela, who is a wholly human figure.

The breo-saighead etymology goes back to the 9th century Cormac's Glossary, which Keating is drawing on here, but it's a fanciful false etymology of the kind medieval glossators adored. (Saighit is from latin 'sagitta', 'arrow'!) As such, it can't be older than the Old Irish period (post 600AD). As I said above, the genuine Celtic etymology of Brigit is *Briganti, 'Exalted One'.

Incidentally there's another of these folk-etymologies of the name Brigit in an Old irish poem ascribed to Moccu Mugairne as part of an origin legent for the Fothairt people: she is referred to as 'brig euit, firdiada', 'Power of Zeal, truly goldly'. Naturally, pagans like this one rather less!

You're certainly right that there is a judgement/art/fire complex of symbolism at work: Kim McCone discussed this at length in his ground-breaking 'Pagan Past and Christian Present in Early Irish Literature' (Maynooth, 1990). Worth getting.

The breo-saighit fanciful etymology shows that Cormac (late 9th century) saw a link between Brigid and flame, but this was hardly news by this stage given the importance of flame miracles in the so-called 'Vita Prima' which is reflected in the 8th c mixed Old irish/Latin Bethu Brigte, 'Life of Brigit'. (Brigidine hagiography is v. complex).

[aelfarh]

Thanks for the clafification

The relationship as fire arrow, from sagitta; could have some influence on the attributes of Diana/Arthemis?

What is about this "Vita Prima" (first life) ?

[megli]

Nov 14, 2008 15:44:31 GMT -1 @aelfarh said:

Thanks for the clafification

The relationship as fire arrow, from sagitta; could have some influence on the attributes of Diana/Arthemis?

No. The gloss 'fiery-arrow' is a Christian one, about a Christian saint, recorded by a chap who was a bishop! Nothing to do with Artemis or Diana - it's just a folk-etymology.

The Vita Prima is one of three saint's lives about Brigit which we have from early medieval Ireland and are the source for much of our information about her.

The Vita Prima was probably composed around 650 AD. Then Cogitosus of Kildare composed a Vita Sanctae Brigitae about 25 years later, drawing strongly on the Vita Prima. Then in the 9th century, a mixed Old Irish/Latin life of Brigit was composed, which we call the Bethu Brigte, 'Life of Brigit'.

Interestingly both the Bethu Brigte and the Vita Prima seem to draw on a Latin text now lost to us, which scholars term the hypothetical 'Primitive Life' of Brigit. This must have been composed in the first half of the 7th century, in all likelihood.

[Heron]

Nice to see you discovering etymologies mid-post Megli!

There is an old site associated with Ffraid on the edge of my village. A local legend says that the current church should have been built there and dedicated to her, but legend has it that lightning struck several times when they were buliding it and a voice came down from the clouds telling them to build it to Michael instead at the 'mouth of the glen'. So that's where the present church is : 'Llanfihangel Genau'r Glyn'. The original site is in a lane know today as Lo^n Glanfre^d (can't get my to bach on!) and the farm standing on the site where the church was to be built, and thought to be the site of an older church dedicated to Ffraid, is called Fferm Glanfre^d. It is an old building and also the place where the mother of Edward Lhuyd was born. Her name was Bridget!

I don't know whether the spelling is just local dialect (the council wanted to change it to Ffraid and there was uproar) or whether this might preserve an older spelling before the devoicing?

[Heron]

Nov 14, 2008 8:42:01 GMT -1 potia said:

Ain't You tube wonderful. I've found it on You tube at: uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AhNEzKxRBis

This is the version I got sent by Fiona, the Gaelic being the older aspect of the song. Fiona sang the Gaelic aspect with harp which as you can imagine gave a very different feel. I sing the Gaelic only and to a much slower pace than this version but it's still a powerful song.

Thanks Potia!