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Post by redraven on Nov 4, 2008 19:51:51 GMT -1
Sacrifice is ultimately about exchange and the movement of energy. Exchange requires currency of some sort. In the simplest transactions that which is exchanged is itself the currency of the transaction, but that isn't always the case. Traditional shamans in indigenous cultures were often sent to seek out the animals the tribe would be hunting the next day in the spirit realms and were supposed to speak to the spirit of the animal and convince it of the necessity of it's earthly demise. Often, the animal would require some form of condition be placed upon it's agreement, which could be something like the first cut be offered to the Gods, as is being muted here, or it could be something like the tribe adopting the animal as a totem. Either way, this would seem to be in agreement with the principles of exchange and movement, or to put it another way, cause and effect. RR
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Post by claer on Nov 5, 2008 18:16:16 GMT -1
A few years ago I spent 8 mths doing welfare assessments of slaughter techniques in various UK slaughterhouses. I've witnessed good and awful slaughter, and various ritual slaughter too - with and without stunning (the later with which I do have a professional problem with). I am also a vegetarian of 29 years. I have and do raise my own livestock - just poultry now, but have had goats in the past. I used to think if I reared it myself and then I would have no problem eating it. However, I find that I have just never felt the need - so don't. This is how I approach the idea of animal sacrifice in my own practice - I don't simply because I've never been called upon to do so or felt the need to. Like Craig, if others wish to for a feast, as long as the animal is reared and slaughtered appropriately and with respect, I have no problem with that.
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Post by Blackbird on Nov 9, 2008 17:51:20 GMT -1
I'm not vegetarian now, but I was brought up veggie. (And looking at the size of me, it's obviously not true that a vegetarian diet produces weak children, lol!) I think that's given me a different relationship with meat. I love it, but it still seems like something special to me.
What I don't understand is the attitude (quite common, from my experience) that raising an animal and having it slaughtered is somehow barbaric - but a packet of battery farmed chicken breast from the supermarket is not.
People are often a bit irrational about their relationship with meat, and I think it's because most people don't live in an environment where they see food animals often. The leap between a cute little pig and a pork chop is just too much for some - but if it's boneless and wrapped in cling film, it's removed enough from the reality of slaughter to be acceptable.
I don't have the land to raise any animals now, so all our meat has to be shop bought. However, it's expensive enough to make it a real sacrifice for me to buy something like a big joint of beef. In terms of value, that's something difficult to afford to me and all the more significant and special for it.
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Post by Heron on Nov 9, 2008 21:23:23 GMT -1
I have been veggie at some points in the past, I think more for life-style reasons than anything else. But now I find it difficult to make those distinctions between different living organisms and recognise that we have to ingest things that were living to remain living ourselves whether they be animal, vegetable or something else (I've heard some vegans won't consume yeast). But I do share the concern about the way animals are transported long distances to mega-slaughterhouses rather than being butchered at smaller places closer to where they are reared because the smaller places can't meet the latest 'standards'. I do try to buy my meat at a local butchers who sells local meat, and can even certify the farm it comes from and the fact that it is slaughtered locally. I can't pretend I never buy those cheaper shrink-wrapped supermarket packages, but try to remain conscious of the implications.
Perhaps a proper ritual to precede the preparation of consumption of meat would not go amiss, if only to make us more aware of what we are doing.
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Post by Blackbird on Nov 10, 2008 9:49:55 GMT -1
Yes, that would be good, given that the ritual (if only in the sense of repeated action) of slaughter is impossible for most of us. Perhaps simply to speak a few words to honour the life that sustains our life, or an acknowlegement that we take something of that animal inside of us when we eat it.
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Post by brongoch on Nov 10, 2008 10:16:56 GMT -1
If I am forced to take a fish or crays when fishing (the rules do not permit returning rainbow trout or signal crayfish because of the sensitive grayling and common crayfish populations) I usually give a short prayer of thanks to the spirit of the animal and to the spirit of the river. I say similar prayers when dispatching an ill chook (they are not used for meat though the eggs are fantastic), generally expressing regret at having to kill, the intention of eating reverently (if not diseased) and wishing a good afterlife. It really brings home the seriousness of killing for food and helps me to appreciate meat for what it is rather than treating it as another commodity.
Sometimes it's too easy to forget that a sausage was once a pig.
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Post by arth_frown on Nov 10, 2008 10:45:19 GMT -1
There are some traditions that say sorry to the animal for taking it's life.
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Post by Adam on Nov 10, 2008 10:52:39 GMT -1
Somehow it makes more sense to say thank you (not just to the animal, but to the Gods... but to the animal too)... I don't eat animal/bird meat any more, partly because the animal IS so divorced from what I was eating... but gratitude seems so much more appropriate than propitiation to me (and applies to the consumption of non-meat foods too That said, it may well be that propitiation had real meaning to our ancestors. And I do acknowledge that the animal had a drive to live which has been overcome, so compassion also seems appropriate. But I was never sorry that some succulent pig had died for my table ;D
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Post by brongoch on Nov 10, 2008 11:02:22 GMT -1
I always remember that scene from All Creatures Great and Small where Herriot finds the farmer sobbing his eyes out. He asks him why he is crying and the farmer says he has just had to kill his favourite pig...he suddenly stops crying and adds "should make a lovely bit of bacon mind!".
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Post by potia on Nov 10, 2008 11:49:53 GMT -1
There's a Fonn (chant) used by the Ceile De that translates as hey the gift, ho the gift, hey the gift, ho the gift for the living. I like to sing it while I'm feeding my daughter her breakfast as it's a happy tune. It also helps to remind me that all our food is a gift both for and of the living.
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Post by claer on Nov 10, 2008 11:51:30 GMT -1
It is practice in our house to say a few words of thanks for our food before eating. I have no problem with a ritual before an animal is slaughtered - as long as it doesn't increase hanging on times for animals like poultry that are shackled prior to slaughter for example. I have witnessed muslims and jewish ritual slaughter. My only opposition - and now mainly with kosher slaughter - is the lack of pre-stunning, as is required for secular animal slaughter, so that they are unconscious before they are killed. I have been very impressed with the handling skills of slaughtermen prior to the kill that I've seen carry out ritual slaughter. Most Halal slaughter now involves pre-stunning, which IMHO, is a big and positive step forward.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 16:57:38 GMT -1
So is there no evidence of animal sacrifice within the history of these lands where the creature did not form part of a meal where it was simply sacrificed to the gods? I would envisage the offering of "the first cut" of meat as a type of libation, a sharing, rather than a sacrifice.
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Post by arth_frown on Nov 11, 2008 17:02:16 GMT -1
So is there no evidence of animal sacrifice within the history of these lands where the creature did not form part of a meal where it was simply sacrificed to the gods? I would envisage the offering of "the first cut" of meat as a type of libation, a sharing, rather than a sacrifice. I think it would been of very rare unlike human sacrifice which would of been rare that the person was eaten. If you want to look more indepth try, dying for the gods by Miranda Green
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Post by jez on Nov 11, 2008 17:02:42 GMT -1
I don't think so. Even now, the only forms of ritual sacrifice, halal and kosher killings, are purely designed to dedicate meat to the gods before it is eaten. Certainly, I don't think any heathen gods were selfish enough to want it all -- Jez
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Post by Craig on Nov 11, 2008 17:17:14 GMT -1
I think it would been of very rare unlike human sacrifice which would of been rare that the person was eaten. Mmmm... long pig, it's been a while since I had that
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Post by Heron on Nov 11, 2008 17:43:18 GMT -1
If you look at the literature of the ancient world where animal sacrifice is quite routinely referred to, it is often clear that the animals were eaten afterwards, though some parts might have been put on the fire and burnt for the gods.
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Post by arth_frown on Nov 12, 2008 17:29:11 GMT -1
If we sacrifice a animal at camp, is there anyone with butchery experience. I have some experience, but have never butchered a whole carcass.
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Post by jez on Nov 12, 2008 17:42:19 GMT -1
If we sacrifice a animal at camp, is there anyone with butchery experience. I have some experience, but have never butchered a whole carcass. More to the point, is there anyone with slaughter experience/qualifications? And are we going to be there long enough to hang the carcass to a state of edibility? -- Jez
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Post by claer on Nov 12, 2008 19:36:09 GMT -1
If we sacrifice a animal at camp, is there anyone with butchery experience. I have some experience, but have never butchered a whole carcass. More to the point, is there anyone with slaughter experience/qualifications? And are we going to be there long enough to hang the carcass to a state of edibility? -- Jez Jez makes a very important point - IMHO training/experience of slaughter is absolutely essential. If anyone is interested in gaining the relevant skills for slaughtering an animal for non-commercial consumption then my advice would be to find out more from the Humane Slaughter Association (HSA on 01582 831919, email info@hsa.org.uk or visit http://www.hsa.org.uk). They give out advice based on science and do run training days on occasions. I do hold a poultry slaughter licence, and have slaughtered birds - I trained so I can do this humanely if an emergency slaughter was necessary for my own birds. I would not do it for any other purpose for personal reasons - I don't see the need. Rather than doing this at a camp - it is my opinion that Francis's offer earlier in the thread would be the much better option. Then slaughter and butchering can be done by a professional.
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