|
Post by arth_frown on Nov 13, 2008 8:34:45 GMT -1
Rather than doing this at a camp - it is my opinion that Francis's offer earlier in the thread would be the much better option. Then slaughter and butchering can be done by a professional. Yeah that's most likely best for the animal.
|
|
|
Post by alfvin on Nov 19, 2008 13:06:13 GMT -1
Haelsa All,
I'm a bit late for this post, having been away but it is one that has been argued on Odinist sites too. There seemed to be a division between the Yanks and the Brits, most Yanks being for and most Brits being against.
My view is that if you wish to make a sacrifice to a particular god, then you should shed your own blood in ritual, for example carving an appropriate rune into your chest. You give your blood and the price is the pain.
The gods do not call for or require animal sacrifice. Thor has two goats which pull his chariot and he kills and eats them, but brings them back to life with his hammer. When he shared the goats with a human family he took the son as a slave because he split one of the thigh bones for the marrow. Thor cared for his goats and was deeply angered.
Odin lives only on mead. Nowhere has there been a bible like requirement for animal sacrifice.
Human captives were sacrificed and there is some evidence that ritual sacrifice may have taken place in the temple at Upsalla, but in the 21st Centuary it is not really acceptable.
Yes, I eat meat although I am sometimes uncomfortable with it.
Alfvin
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 20, 2008 23:44:49 GMT -1
My view is that if you wish to make a sacrifice to a particular god, then you should shed your own blood in ritual, for example carving an appropriate rune into your chest. You give your blood and the price is the pain. That's an offering, a statement of dedication, not a sacrifice of sorcerous praxis.
|
|
|
Post by alfvin on Nov 21, 2008 13:59:11 GMT -1
True, the actual ritual of carving a rune into your flesh is a dedication. Still a sacrifice has been made on your part. When I cut wood for runes, I always cut myself and gife a gift of my blood to the tree as an exchange, again it's not strictly a sacrifice but I see no need to slaughter an animal as a sacrifice to anything. There is no honour in killing a creature weaker than yourself and seems too biblical for my liking.
It's a personal thing, you will have a view either for or against it. I'm against it and would not attend any feast where a ritual sacrifice was to be carried out. It is not something I wish to partake in or witness. None of my gods demand it of me, unlike the desert god.
Alfvin
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 21, 2008 16:05:02 GMT -1
True, the actual ritual of carving a rune into your flesh is a dedication. Still a sacrifice has been made on your part. When I cut wood for runes, I always cut myself and gife a gift of my blood to the tree as an exchange, again it's not strictly a sacrifice but I see no need to slaughter an animal as a sacrifice to anything. There is no honour in killing a creature weaker than yourself and seems too biblical for my liking. There's no sacrifice in that. It's a dedication, an offering, nothing more. Cut off your finger when you cut your rune-staves and perhaps you will have made a sacrifice then. Get out of the biblical, it's a neo-pagan excuse for practically everything we don't like. That and the Romans. Who were indeed quite fond of killing animals and dedicating them to the Gods, as were the Irish and their killing the horse as part of the sovreignty ritual. And all of the various archaeological deposits. Etc. Here's one from the Orkneyinga Sage, one of that most astonishingly creative methods of ritual despatch, the blood eagle: "Next morning when it was light they went to look for runagate men among the isles if any had got away; and each was slain on the spot as he stood. Then earl Einar took to saying these words: "I know not what I see in Rinansey, sometimes it lifts itself up, but sometimes it lays itself down, that is either a bird or a man, and we will go to it." There they found Halfdan Long-leg, and Einar made them carve an eagle on his back with a sword, and cut the ribs all from the backbone, and draw the lungs there out, and gave him to Odin for the victory he had won (10) then Einar sung this:".That's in Wiki, not exactly hard to find.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 21, 2008 16:12:01 GMT -1
True, the actual ritual of carving a rune into your flesh is a dedication. Still a sacrifice has been made on your part. When I cut wood for runes, I always cut myself and gife a gift of my blood to the tree as an exchange, again it's not strictly a sacrifice but I see no need to slaughter an animal as a sacrifice to anything. There is no honour in killing a creature weaker than yourself and seems too biblical for my liking. evidently you have never tried to make a cow or pig do something it doesnt want to? as i think has been mentioned, most animal sacrifices were done as part of the slughter process anyway, the animal was to be eaten by the people involved in some sort of feast. first of all however they dedicated it to their gods. much like in modern Santeria or Candomble for instance. Biblical? come off it, almost every culture since the dawn of humanity has performed some sort of live sacrifice - didnt they do something like that at Uppsala? if i recall correctly it was 9 of every animal every 9 years. what if you went to a farmer friends ritual, where he slaughtered and cooked an animal he had reared? would you attend? im sure the desert god hasnt made any demands of you of late, im sure they stopped that kind of thing way before we did here in europe.
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 21, 2008 17:46:22 GMT -1
im sure the desert god hasnt made any demands of you of late, im sure they stopped that kind of thing way before we did here in europe. Animal sacrifice is still practiced in Judaism. In fact, 'holocaust' means 'fire sacrifice'.
|
|
|
Post by alfvin on Nov 24, 2008 12:39:55 GMT -1
I'm very familiar with the blood eagle and also Upsalla. yes, it was nine of everything including humans. The blood eagle was also only carried out on human sacrifices.
The thing with Northern heathenry is that it was never an organised religion in the same way that druidry was. Human and animal sacrifice was practiced by both. I'm not ignorant of the fact. However unlike Judaism where animal sacrifices were not only made but written down what and how. I'm merely pointing out we don't have any such direct instructions to carry out any such sacrifice. In other words, we don't have to if we don't want to. It comes down to personal choice and I choose not to.
Not because I'm squemish, I've seen more dead bodies killed and natural than you could shake a stick at. I just don't feel it's anything that my gods require of me.
No, I wouldn't attend a feast where an animal was publically slaughtered, I don't care who was giving the feast. If it was properly slaughtered away from public gaze, then maybe, but it's not a thing that should have any entertainment value.
These are my personal feelings and do not reflect those of the Northern tradition generally, where each person is free to follow the gods in any way he or she feels fit.
As for cutting off a finger to cut runes, it wouldn't be long before I couldn't hold a knife ;D.
Yes it would be a sacrifice, but for what point? Sacrifice meaning to make holy anyway, does not the ritual shedding of your own blood for a specific purpose satisfy that point? Some people would pour out a libation of mead (I do that too.) as a sacrifice to the gods. It's not much, it's more symbolic, as is most things we do. Sure Odin plucked out an eye, but Odin is a god, I am not. If I plucked out an eye for a spiritual reason, or cut off a finger for that, then please have me committed to the nearest assylum.
Alfvin
|
|
|
Post by maglowyllt on Nov 24, 2008 15:11:11 GMT -1
I don't think the word sacrifice does mean 'to make holy' Alfvin; it requires the surrendering of something precious that one owns in homage to the Gods. Although offering blood is more of an offering than an actual sacrifice (always plenty more where it came from) I don't think anyone will dispute that it is more than adapt to show devotion and "make holy".
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 24, 2008 18:22:57 GMT -1
As for cutting off a finger to cut runes, it wouldn't be long before I couldn't hold a knife ;D. Alfvin, in everything you wrote that is the one sentence that actually illustrates the point of sacrifice.
|
|
|
Post by alfvin on Nov 26, 2008 13:16:32 GMT -1
Yes, I suppose it does. Anyway I won't be swayed into doing something that is against my conscience. Perhaps it is because I have seen so much of death, that I hold a strong view, I don't really know, or care to analyse. I am me, that is my personal view, right or wrong.
I have sacrificed silver etc. in the past too but don't feel inclined to make sacrifice at the moment, perhaps I should, life is difficult at the moment in a different country in the worst economic climate probably since the 1930's. What do you all think? What can we all do to stop being victims of greedy banks and corrupt and incompetent governments? I guess that should be a new thread.
Alfvin
|
|
|
Post by arth_frown on Nov 26, 2008 19:11:07 GMT -1
Yes, I suppose it does. Anyway I won't be swayed into doing something that is against my conscience. Perhaps it is because I have seen so much of death, that I hold a strong view, I don't really know, or care to analyse. I am me, that is my personal view, right or wrong. Alfvin I killed a few yeasts baking a loaf of bread tonight not to mention beer. How do we define when a life is important and when it isn't?
|
|
|
Post by clare on Nov 26, 2008 21:51:49 GMT -1
Arth, you've put your finger on it. We slaughter millions when we take antibiotics.
My own take on this is that everyone, vegan to meatarian, should at least skin one animal in their lifetime. I've had the priveledge of helping to butcher a couple of sheep, from start to finish, and I can't say I enjoyed it, but it tested me in a way I could be proud of. There's a thin line between doing this kind of thing for the 'right' and the 'wrong' reasons and I suppose those reasons will be different from person to person and time to time.
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 26, 2008 22:13:45 GMT -1
Arth, you've put your finger on it. We slaughter millions when we take antibiotics. My own take on this is that everyone, vegan to meatarian, should at least skin one animal in their lifetime. I've had the priveledge of helping to butcher a couple of sheep, from start to finish, and I can't say I enjoyed it, but it tested me in a way I could be proud of. There's a thin line between doing this kind of thing for the 'right' and the 'wrong' reasons and I suppose those reasons will be different from person to person and time to time. If anyone asks me, I will tell them the most significant thing I've ever been told about being a pagan. It was from a guy I went to Uni with, who grew up on a farm in Wiltshire. He said you can all yourself a pagan when you look after a baby rabbit, see it grow up to bea full grown bunny. Then kill it, eat it and use it's skin to clothe your children. Lot's of people say they would do it when I tell them this, but usually their eyes say something entirely different.
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Nov 26, 2008 22:15:11 GMT -1
Anyway I won't be swayed into doing something that is against my conscience. And that illustrates exactly why what you do is not a sacrifice.
|
|
|
Post by Craig on Nov 27, 2008 12:09:06 GMT -1
If anyone asks me, I will tell them the most significant thing I've ever been told about being a pagan. It was from a guy I went to Uni with, who grew up on a farm in Wiltshire. He said you can all yourself a pagan when you look after a baby rabbit, see it grow up to bea full grown bunny. Then kill it, eat it and use it's skin to clothe your children. Lot's of people say they would do it when I tell them this, but usually their eyes say something entirely different. Isn't that a definition of being a farmer?
|
|
|
Post by aelfarh on Nov 27, 2008 13:54:52 GMT -1
I don't think the word sacrifice does mean 'to make holy' Alfvin; it requires the surrendering of something precious that one owns in homage to the Gods. Although offering blood is more of an offering than an actual sacrifice (always plenty more where it came from) I don't think anyone will dispute that it is more than adapt to show devotion and "make holy". Sacrifice came from the word sacrificĭum in latin, who comes from sacrum, that is holly, and therefore it does mean make holly. From the oxford dictionary, we also can see that : Sacrifice (noun) 1 the practice or an act of killing an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to a deity. 2 an animal, person, or object offered in this way. 3 an act of giving up something one values for the sake of something that is of greater importance. So, sacrifice IS an offering. An offering of something of great value, to make it holy, and to make the ceremony and intentions holy, as it was the cattle or even the human life in the past. The blood involve sacrifice, that is to kill something or someone had a deeper meaning of the renewal of the cosmos itself, something that is not really present in just a feast. From my point of view, unless we need to perform a ceremony that really is focused on the renewal of the cosmos itself, public sacrifice of an animal, is not necessary, if it's just the point of view of an offering to honour the gods, material sacrifice could match the requirements. As for human sacrifice is out of the question for me. I agree with Alfvin, killing shall not be something that have any entertainment value, I'm oppose to that, as with dog fights or the full fights performed in Spain. As for myself, I would not participate in any public killing show, even if it has religious background. Now, if you rise your own cattle, and use it for eating, and when killing them offer the killing to your gods, and it's performed in a professional way without to be an entertainment issue, I will participate in that feasting. I have family who owns farms, and have killed some chickens my self, and help in the process of killing a pig, it was done with respect, in a professional way, and without giving any show. Then we eat them, and I also help to cook them, and participate on the meal. It could be a small difference, but for me the public killing shows are not something I like or encourage.
|
|
|
Post by Adam on Nov 28, 2008 10:51:47 GMT -1
im sure the desert god hasnt made any demands of you of late, im sure they stopped that kind of thing way before we did here in europe. Animal sacrifice is still practiced in Judaism. In fact, 'holocaust' means 'fire sacrifice'. But holocaust is not a Jewish term, it is a Biblical one (from the Greek) and regarded as an insulting term by many Jews...
|
|
|
Post by alfvin on Nov 29, 2008 15:33:08 GMT -1
Littleraven, are you saying that a sacrifice must be something that goes against your conscience? That doesn't seem right to me. It would be against my conscience to throw a baby down a well, but if it wasn't against my conscience to carry out such an act as a sacrifice to the spirit of the well, that would be OK then?
Alfvin
|
|