Beli Mawr/Belenus/Bolgios

[maglowyllt]

I am interested in knowing what those more experienced than myself think about the deity known as Beli from the Mabinogi. He is evidently a Father God - progeniator of most of the greater Welsh Gods and is also the lord of death, a very warlike figure. I personally have always thought him to be equal with Belenos - the lord of the Sun, mostly because I felt it natural that a solar deity occupy such an important position in a Pantheon. Belenos is one of the most important gods from my own experiences. But recently I have seen arguments that he is infact the Cymric version of Bolgios - a gaulish god of death with no solar attributes. Any thoughts on this?

[arth_frown]

I have read from Irish texts that was a rite called trial by Belenos. IIRC it's the same as in India walking across hot coals. If you got burnt you were guilty. I think some pits have been found in Britain too, so it's possible the rite was performed over here as well.

[aelfarh]

The Basques worshipped Djaun-Giokkoak (Janicot), the All-Father All-Mother who created the three forms of light: Egia (truth), the light of the soul, Begia (eye), the light of the body and Etchia (sun), the light of the earthly day. The divine light manifested on Earth as three powers: Erditze (the Fruitful), of the high pastures, Beigorri (the Passionate), of the red earth and Alherbeltze (the Crusher), of the black rocks. Alherbeltze (later shortened to Bel) ruled the stone circles erected throughout what is modern day France and Spain by the Basques, and the three manifestations of divine light in human affairs celebrated therein: birth, marriage and death. The stones were often carved with representations of the fact that here the veil between the physical and spiritual worlds was thin: two circles connected by concentric circles, representing Bel, ruler of the bright world, and Leheren Suge (three-horned dragon), ruler of the dark world . The two worlds are inhabited equally by men and are therefore equal themselves. Bel's reign was celebrated on May 1 (usually with a Maypole Dance), while Leheren's reign was celebrated November 1

When a group of Basques settled in Britain between 9,000 and 5,000 BC, they took with them the worship of Bel, his Holy Day of May 1, and the building of stone circles. Later, the Beaker People arrived and mixed with the Basques, bringing their innovations, such as working silver and gold. When the Greek geographer Pytheas sailed around Britain in 325 BC, he called them the Pretanic Isles because the inhabitants called themselves the Priteni. This evolved into Prytani (Prytaini, Prydaini), and later became Britanni. In 297 AD the Roman, Emmenius, referred to the people of northern Britain as the 'Picti.' Most researchers believe this to refer to the Latin word 'pictus,' meaning 'painted.' Some, however, believe it may be a latinized version of Priteni, after the Norse 'Pettr,' old English 'Peohta,' and old Scots 'Pecht.'

from www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/BASQUES.html

[stefan]

Hi,

Belenus is also my main god and I would also be interested to hear peoples opinions on his connection, (if any) to Beli. As Cunnubelinus, king and father of Caractcus means Hound of Belenus, I wonder if the now English area of Britian would have had the same understanding of this god as in Wales. Cunnubelinus was king of the caturvilini, sorry know I''ve spelt that wrong, basically the tribe next to the Iceni. So Belenus was very important to them in an area that is now England.
Seems from last posting Beli also had a brother which seems to link into my understanding of Belenus as a solar twin deity.

[ghyll]

Cunobelinus of the Catuvellauni
Son of Tasciovanus. Father of Adminius, Caratacus and Togodumnus

[maglowyllt]

Aelfarh's post about the basque people is of interest to me as I live near the region they inhabited. I already knew of one of their gods being named Beli though it says in your source it is a shortened name from a name that seems quite a lot different - Is it possible that the name actually comes from their equtaed that god with a celtic divinity or can it be taken that Alherbeltze is definitely one and the same with Belenos, or at least his origin.

I wonder if the now English area of Britian would have had the same understanding of this god as in Wales

Perhaps the Beli Mawr of the Mabinogi became confused in part with other gods hence his resemblance to Bolgios?

[Tegernacus]

Nov 28, 2008 21:54:58 GMT -1 @aelfarh said:

www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/BASQUES.html

seriously though...

[aelfarh]

Hey Tegernacus.. I'm very ashamed to ask, but would you mind to explain the meaning of that expression? I think I didn't catch it. sorry, boundaries of the language.

[Tegernacus]

sorry. I meant that that article was... dubious. People in 5000bc didn't dance around Maypoles, and if they did then we don't know about it. this is slightly more accurate maybe:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Mythology

[maglowyllt]

sorry. I meant that that article was... dubious

Phew, I'm glad someone else said it. I was fairly sure there was some unlikely elements of that article but I couldn't find a better one! The maypole was an anglos-saxon invention wasn't it? Is the link between Alherbeltze and Belenos less than the article claims then?

[Tegernacus]

they both have "bel" in them?

[aelfarh]

Yes, the article have various doubly elements; and doesn't quote it's sources. I just thought that it could be interesting that maybe there's a link between Alherbeltze and Belenus, as there's a genetic link between the Euskadi people and the one from the isles.

For sure it would be very interesting that Belenus could be a pre-indo-european deity.

[maglowyllt]

Hello again, people of Dun Brython.

Just thought I'd share with you that due to my own continuing researches and some personal experience with this deity (who seems to be becoming my patron), my opinions on him have changed. I now think Beli to equatable with Bolgios rather than a solar deity figure - I am also coming to find him to be the same as he whom the romans called Dis Pater and possibly the Irish Dagda. The main thought that lead me to this is that Beli is evidently an ancestor of man and the Plânt Don/Tuatha de Dannan/Tribe of light, family of gods whereas Belenos seems to me to be more of the father of the Formor/Giants/Cawaroi as the Irish myths portray him.

Open (in fact hoping for) any of your own comments and thoughts.

Maglowiltos.

[megli]

Beli does absolutely f*** all in the medieval Welsh texts. He has NO characteristics other than being called 'Great', which is rather bland as epithets go. He appears as a character in no tale. He performs no actions that we know of, although he is referred to in the vaguest terms as a legendary ruler and proprietor of Britain. So a 'lord of death'? 'Lord of the sun'? Who the hell knows? I could say he was the 'lord of gin slings' with just as much justification.

He may - may - have been an ancestor deity, from whom some early Welsh dynasties claimed descent. He might be connected to Belinus, though we might have expected Welsh **Belin if the word truly derived from that source. (The ** indicates an unatested form.) The connection to Bolgios/Belgios is possible (British Belgios wd give you Welsh Beli) but we don't know much about them/him either.

So - he might well be a literary resonance of a pre-Christian god, but we know sod all about him and the connection isn't secure. The idea of a link to Basque mythology - if that's what it is - is complete rubbish.

[maglowyllt]

He does indeed do, as you put it '**** all' but he is cited as the father of Arianrhod and some of the other children of Dôn is he not? Or did I effectively make this up?

I find it both interesting and strange that quite alot of the originally major deities are minor figures in the Mabinogi ,notably the mother Goddess (Dôn) Beli (whoever he indeed is he is surely one of the elder gods of the old celtic pantheon) Taranis (i think Taran is mentioned briefly somewhere in it). Major gallo-brythonic deities like Toutatis, Sulis, Nemetona etc... aren't mentionned at all wheras many of the characters are linked to compatitively minor deities - I think it was you who identified Gwynn as being cognate with Vindonnos who is only known from an inscription or two.

- Also, are you denying that he can be linked to either Bolgios or Belenus?

[megli]

No, I explicitly said that both were possible. He is indeed cited as a vague ancestor figure - which led Rachel Bromwich to suggest that he may have been an ancestral deity once - but there is no conclusive evidence that that was the case. My point is you can say that he's a sun god, a death god, a whatever-you-like god, because there's only equivocal evidence that he was ever a god at all and the name has several mutually-contradictory possible derivations. He's little more than a resonant name topping genealogies. (If you go for Bolgios as the source it could mean 'Divine Bag'!)

Taran is indeed mentioned in the PKM (in the 2nd branch) - whether he's a literary resonance of Taranis or merely someone called 'Thunder' (taran is just the ordinary noun for thunder in Welsh) is unclear. Again, he's just a name. He doesn't DO anything that might let us assess the claim one way or the other.

The Mabinogi is not at all a good quarrying-ground for pre-Christian Brythonic religion, which is frustrating. More time separated the redactor of the text from functional Romano-British paganism than separates us from the Peasants' Revolt.