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Post by aelfarh on Dec 16, 2008 15:29:05 GMT -1
I have not seen sound references stating that Druids had used drugs as part of a ritual. How ever it has been a common practice in other pagan traditions, specially in the priesthood class, to get inspiration and visions.
What do you think of the ritual use of drugs? Do they really help to get into a altered state of consciousness that helps for the ritual / meditation? or are they just not good?
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Post by maglowyllt on Dec 16, 2008 17:36:51 GMT -1
Don't I remeber seeing somewhere that Henbane was used as a ritual drug in Ancient Britain? There would have been few other natural hallucinogenics about wouldn't there?
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Post by chris on Dec 16, 2008 19:40:06 GMT -1
Atropa belladonna (deadly nightshade) may well have been one.
Curiously, one of the hallucinogenic symptoms of belladonna is the feeling that one is covered in feathers, and flying.
Ergot which was synthesized to make LSD would also have been around in ancient times, and there were bound to have been plentiful supplies of various fungi.
Speaking personally, I don't have any problem accessing trance states and "seeing" energy and beings from other realms. I've very rarely taken any hallucinogenics in ritual or otherwise - twice in my life with a gap of 30-odd years between is all. However, I have friends who have used drugs extensively for a period of several years to access states of altered consciousness (MDMA, ayahuasca, LSD, etc). They now don't seem to be able to function without them, even planning what to take with them to heighten the experience of a walk in the countryside - but that's the inevitable problem with using short cuts for too long and too liberally.
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Post by arth_frown on Dec 16, 2008 20:18:03 GMT -1
A bit of conjecture here, I'm sure they would of used magic mushrooms.
Cannabis was found in a pot of a iron age burial might of been used a incense or smoked.
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 17, 2008 10:18:33 GMT -1
I'm sure they were! Just as today, people will always seek substances which make a tedious life more fun And the potential for use in ritual must have been obvious. Personally, I don't like using any substance for ritual, especially when seeking visions. These are difficult enough to validate, without having to wonder whether or not they are just drug induced fantasy.
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Post by littleraven on Dec 19, 2008 6:29:15 GMT -1
There is a quote somewhere, although as all too often I assimilate the info and forget the source, from a Buddhist monk who stated if he had Ecstasy he wouldn't have had to spend twenty years meditating.. Says something that.
There is definate potential, conjecture and implication, although obviously no real evidence. Consumption followed by trance is written, where cat or bull or horse could easily be symbolic.
Magic Mushrooms definately, I know people who have experimented successfully in a spiritual context. Fly Agaric grows in Britain, particularly around Birch forest. Nightshade wine is current in some trads, particularly in a forced initiatory context. Ergot possibly, but it's very dangerous and I doubt it tbh. Not much use if you can't get back from the Otherworld.
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Post by Adam on Dec 19, 2008 8:11:01 GMT -1
There is a quote somewhere, although as all too often I assimilate the info and forget the source, from a Buddhist monk who stated if he had Ecstasy he wouldn't have had to spend twenty years meditating.. Says something that. There was an apocryphal tale going round some 25 years back about a Tibetan Buddhist monk who attended a celeb party in the US (various tales gave different hosts, though the most common was David Bowie IIRC) and was given some LSD, following which he remarked that the state of consciousness it induced was by no means unfamiliar to him, though the colours were quite pretty
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Post by chris on Dec 19, 2008 8:40:17 GMT -1
A lot of them are "very dangerous", LR. The alkaloids hyoscyamine, atropine and scopolamine in henbane and belladonna aren't all that friendly, either. Ayahuasca is vile tasting stuff that causes massive vomiting (purging as part of the ceremonies), and tabernanthe iboga (used in cultures such as the Bwiti in the Congo for rites of passage especially at puberty) can cause coma and death by respiratory arrest.
Basically, it's all a question of dosage. Even oxygen can be toxic in certain contexts - ie too much given to premature babies.
Alchemists and herbalists actually used to use ergot (secale) in potions to hasten childbirth.
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Post by Lee on Dec 19, 2008 13:54:43 GMT -1
i think there is a place certainly to experiment with some types of drugs, from camomile to help calm you to hallucinogens to bring on visions.
i have had a homemade mead with verbena and mugwort in it whcih had interesting effects, a ritual cup with thornapple , some sythetic hallucinogens which also produced very interesting effects.
i wouldnt write them off, i think in moderation with sober people to be there to help and guide, i think they can be very useful indeed. certainly not worth instant dismissal.
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Post by arth_frown on Dec 19, 2008 15:40:00 GMT -1
I think Corn Cockel is another hallucinogenic plant
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Post by stefan on Dec 20, 2008 12:49:55 GMT -1
I have used hallucinogenics extensively in the past, its a personal thing, the AC course dedicates a whole lesson to it, but I would never attempt to encourage anyone, I have witnessed too many victims with mental health issues directly connected to their use.
Grigsby In Warriors of the Wasteland claims hallucinogenics have been traced in Bronze Age beakers and ergot was traced in the stomach of the Lindow Man.
I have used the liberty cap and can inform you it connects you to nature like nothing else. You imbibe a plant to connect to the soul of the vegetation world, it is indescribable and a deeply spiritual experience. Aldus Huxley stated the man who walks through the hole in the wall will never be the same again. It is indeed mind expanding and changes your entire concept of reality.
I guess I believe to a certain extent that everything is reality, even fantasy, nothing is an illusion, everything being part of the No Thing, but I know I may stand alone here in that belief.
Certainly when mushrooms are consumed by a group, a group mind seems to form, they see the same things, become intuitively connected and experience almost the same thoughts and feelings.
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Post by redraven on Dec 20, 2008 15:54:47 GMT -1
Wasn't ergot implecated in the Salem witch trials?
RR
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Post by Lee on Dec 20, 2008 18:13:55 GMT -1
yep indeedy, also in europe when some of the hsyteria was going on. all to do with some of the symptoms of ergot poisoning being the things they describe happening while being bewitched etc
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Post by alfvin on Dec 21, 2008 12:18:03 GMT -1
My personal view is that I have never used drugs, other than those prescribed and prefer to retain control of my own mind and wits at all times. I have found no need to use drugs, I'm happy with drumming, breathing control etc.
I guess today it's whatever floats your boat but as an ex ambulanceman who has brought a few junkies back from the brink, I just don't approve.
Alfvin
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 23, 2008 9:37:16 GMT -1
Ergot poisoning is usually accidental, from the contamination of rye crops. Given that it's a particularly nasty affliction, I can't imagine anyone ingesting the stuff on purpose... On about poisonous things, I was amused to see that Anthony Worral Thompson had recommended the use of henbane in salads ;D He had to issue a very hasty apology... I think he must have meant fat hen
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Post by sehnga on Dec 23, 2008 10:09:38 GMT -1
Lol - what a typo!
Drugs: not for me; I like my mind the way it was issued to my head. However, I do know people who swear by the ability to have deeper experiences with usage - but I am always left wondering if what they say they experienced was truly real or simply the drugs effects. Is there a difference? I believe so.
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Post by aelfarh on Dec 23, 2008 19:19:41 GMT -1
but I am always left wondering if what they say they experienced was truly real or simply the drugs effects. Is there a difference? I believe so. I have the same wondering, I have spoken to people who say that the state of mind induced by the rituals + drugs is really something that the ones who haven't experience can't understand, and very different since "opens some channels of perception" I have to admit that make me some how curious, but I also think if not that "experiences" are only drug effects.
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Post by chris on Dec 23, 2008 20:36:54 GMT -1
One aspect that people don't often consider is that of personal safety - and I don't mean necessarily from within their own, personal subconscious (although that's difficult enough territory at times).
I do sometimes wonder what exactly some of the ayahuasca and iboga tourists are getting themselves into. They head off on a trip (in all senses of the word) to a country most of them don't know, with a group of people most of whom don't know each other (or their individual capabilities and/or agendas) under the supervision of someone who could be the shamanic real deal ..... or maybe not.
Drugs are designed to break down boundaries. Trouble is, not all of the boundaries are merely that of the individual's perception. A lot of drugs like MDMA (ecstasy) and LSD dissolve the individual's body armour and open their hearts - which is all fine and dandy IF the individual is being held in an ultra-safe space, with trustworthy others who have no agendas such as sexual "rescue".
If not they can get themselves into all kinds of trouble .... and end up not knowing if they've had an amazing spiritual experience, or been used, or even some of mixed-up both.
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Post by Adam on Dec 24, 2008 15:13:06 GMT -1
but I am always left wondering if what they say they experienced was truly real or simply the drugs effects. Is there a difference? I believe so. I have the same wondering, I have spoken to people who say that the state of mind induced by the rituals + drugs is really something that the ones who haven't experience can't understand, and very different since "opens some channels of perception" I have to admit that make me some how curious, but I also think if not that "experiences" are only drug effects. One thing drugs can do is to teach you just how distorted a version of reality our cognition and perception give us... however, what they cannot do, unless the appropriate psycho-spiritual framework is present, is teach us anything about what to do about that. Or it becomes dangerous work...
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