Ritona?

[Heron]

In his book Wales and the Arthurian Legend, R S Loomis mentions a "goddess of fords" called 'Ritona' which he constructs from Welsh 'ryd'. He claims this goddess is associated with the River Rieu in France. He is rather out of date by now and his citation in this case is to a nineteenth century work which is even further back. There is also much in Loomis which has the whiff of not being reliable but I wonder if anyone else has heard of this goddess?

Her name sounds too much like Rigantona to be true and as the context for his discussion is the development from Matrona to several different goddesses and fays I wonder if this is just a confusion. Anyone know anything?

[megli]

The ford etymology is possible: it can't be connected with Rigantona. (Different words entirely).
But she sometimes occurs with 'Pritona' in the form Ritona-Pritona. People have tried to make these alternate forms of the same word, especially as the ford word etymologically once had a p-, as in 'port', by the way, which is the same as rhyd (and 'ford'!). However this ignores the fact that p- was lost in all Celtic languages at the protoceltic stage, well before Gaulish. Therefore they must be two different roots, and the ones that seems likely to me are those for 'buy' and 'sell', *kwrin- and *rin- respectively, yielding *prin- and *rin- in Gaulish. 'Goddess of Buying and Selling' would be 'Gaulish *Rinona Prinona' which, under the influence of numerous theonyms ending in -tona and -tonos, would be liable by 'dissimilation' to give you Ritona-Pritona. People unconsciously dislike saying the same or similar consonant(s) several times in a row - 'n' in this case - and will tend to shift some of them to something close but different. That's dissimilation, and it's very common. For example in English:

standard: chimney (two 'nasals' next to each other, m and n)
dialectical: chimley (the second nasal is dissimilated to a 'liquid')

[Deleted]

cool!

Preniñ ha gwerzhiñ in Breton the 'preniñ' part is just so close to the Gaulish....Celtic languages are great

[megli]

And Welsh prynu, 'buy', of course: the 'sell' root has been replaced in Brittonic ( with gwerthu/gwerzhiñ, as you say) but still exists in Irish: Old Irish renaid, '(s)he sells'.

[arth_frown]

I've often wondered if the English ford ( road through river) has anything in common with the Welsh fford?

[Heron]

Mar 4, 2009 22:43:24 GMT -1 megli said:

The ford etymology is possible:

I'm glad to hear it!
It sounded plausible and I really would like to know the name of a goddess of fords.

... Therefore they must be two different roots, and the ones that seems likely to me are those for 'buy' and 'sell', *kwrin- and *rin- respectively, yielding *prin- and *rin- in Gaulish. 'Goddess of Buying and Selling' would be 'Gaulish *Rinona Prinona' which, under the influence of numerous theonyms ending in -tona and -tonos, would be liable by 'dissimilation' to give you Ritona-Pritona.

On the other hand, next time I'm shopping ....

[Heron]

Mar 5, 2009 18:16:05 GMT -1 arth_frown said:

I've often wondered if the English ford ( road through river) has anything in common with the Welsh fford?

Yes, my understanding is that it was borrowed into Welsh quite early (pre 12th century). I seem to remember reading somewhere that ffordd, rhyd and porth (gateway) can all be shown to stem from the same source word.

[arth_frown]

Mar 5, 2009 21:03:42 GMT -1 Heron said:

Mar 5, 2009 18:16:05 GMT -1 arth_frown said:

I've often wondered if the English ford ( road through river) has anything in common with the Welsh fford?

Yes, my understanding is that it was borrowed into Welsh quite early (pre 12th century). I seem to remember reading somewhere that ffordd, rhyd and porth (gateway) can all be shown to stem from the same source word.

Thanks Heron.

[Heron]

Mar 5, 2009 21:11:02 GMT -1 arth_frown said:

Mar 5, 2009 21:03:42 GMT -1 Heron said:

Yes, my understanding is that it was borrowed into Welsh quite early (pre 12th century). I seem to remember reading somewhere that ffordd, rhyd and porth (gateway) can all be shown to stem from the same source word.

Thanks Heron.

And Megli!

[megli]

Yep, they're all from an I-E root *prtu-, in which the -r- is a 'syllabic' sound like the ur in American English purdy for 'pretty'!

This gives Latin portus, 'port' and probably porta 'gate', borrowed from Latin to Welsh as porth, 'gate'.

In Germanic, initial p- was turned to an f- (compare pater and father, piscis and fish) and the -t- 'voiced' to a -d, hence ford, borrowed into Welsh, as heron says, with very Welsh softening of the final consonant, as ffordd.

In Celtic, initial p- was lost altogether, giving middle Welsh ryt, modern Welsh rhyd, 'ford'.

[Lee]

It sounded plausible and I really would like to know the name of a goddess of fords.

potential nonsense coming up, i recall a paper in a book - might have been the Loomis one or something similar in whcih modron is equated with fords in much the same way the Morrighan is.

i shall look at home tonight.

[megli]

She meets some old dolly - Urien, possibly - at a ford. (This is Modron ferch Avallach).

[Heron]

Mar 6, 2009 9:37:09 GMT -1 Lee said:

It sounded plausible and I really would like to know the name of a goddess of fords.

potential nonsense coming up, i recall a paper in a book - might have been the Loomis one or something similar in whcih modron is equated with fords in much the same way the Morrighan is.

i shall look at home tonight.

Sounds like Loomis. He says that Matrona gave rise not just to Modron but to Morrigan, Morgan la Fay, and host of other morgans (mermaids) and other water spirits, particularly in West Wales, concluding that

“She [Morgana] has acquired not only the attributes and activities of Macha, the Morrigan and Matrona, but also the mythic heritage of other Celtic deities. She is a female pantheon in miniature."

And that somehow the Goidelic and Brythonic routes diverged and then came together again in the multiplicity of female deities derived from Matrona and culminating in the Arthurian Morgan.

The problem with Loomis is that he never just states his findings but seems to be forcing an argument (and perhaps the evidence?)

[megli]

Especially the evidence. He was no cop as a Celticist - he was an arthurian scholar masqueraduing.