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Post by potia on May 26, 2010 14:21:31 GMT -1
In the Brython core values document it states: "The teguloktos/tylwyth refers to the people of Brython. We are the Teguloktos Rigatona; the Family of Rigatona. She is the goddess of the Grey Mare, our matron and the one who protects our family. If Brython is a fortress, then She guards its walls and those within. At present there is only one teguloktos forming Brython. As the concept of the teguloktos is rooted with the idea of a deity of large landscape area, it is likely all British Aelweddau will fall under the Teguloktos Rigatona. In time we forsee others joining Brython from other lands and therefore a new teguloktos may appear." www.dunbrython.org.uk/corevalues/I'm not sure we've ever really discussed what Rigantona means to us. We've talked briefly before about Epona and touched on whether Epona and Rigantona are the same Goddess but not in much depth. We've been talking about sovereignty and Rigantona's name has come up there too. I think it's past time to try and open this out a bit more, to try and share just what Rigantona is or isn't to us. This may have been something that others talked about earlier in Brython's development but I can't find anything here and I think we could do with talking about her a bit more. So who is Rigantona? What does she mean to you? Is Epona another name for the same being?
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Post by Lee on May 27, 2010 9:39:57 GMT -1
crikey to my own releif i am finding it easier these days to let go of notions of goddess of X or god of Y and accept they are like humans in the respect that they are complex beings. were i a god, i might be a god of palaeontology, of same sex relationships and rum. maybe one days a neo-neo-pagan book will be written about me in those terms what it might miss out is that i also have a range of facets to me that are smaller, more subtle and only known to those who have been close to me (such as a burgeoning love of hawkmoths). the gods are much the same, so whilst we might talk in terms of broad attributes, all those smaller, less often spoken about sides of them we come to know are what set our own relationships apart. *** in broad terms she is the landscape... the embodiment of what it is, what it does and is the 'face' with which we interact. she is the ultimate landlady. from that stems a host of other facets; bestower of sovereignty for example.
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Post by potia on May 27, 2010 12:03:18 GMT -1
I realise I do ask some awkward questions sometimes but folks here make me think so I like to return the favour Last question first is Epona another name for a being that answers to the name Rigantona? If you had asked me this a couple of years ago I would have said I don't think they are the same. Time and expereinces change you and I now think that they are the same being. I first came to know her as Epona, Divine Mare but it may well be that the being I was connecting with was not the same as the being answering to that name in Europe. I'm really not sure though. I have come to feel that Rigantona is another of her names. For me personally another name is Firehair and this is very much a personal nickname if you will from my own past experiences. So yes to me it is one and the same being that responds to all these names. What does she mean to me? She is most importantly my guide and guardian. I have felt her presence in my joys and sorrows, sharing and comforting. It is as guardian and protector of the herd that I feel her most strongly. While she is linked to the land it's not the strongest of her connections for me. If I listen to her gentle nudges I feel my life goes a little more smoothly. In meditative or shamanic style journeys she has taken me places, introduced me to others and taught me things. Sometimes I've been a bit on the dense side and she has had great patience with me but to me she's also demonstrated a rather quirky sense of humour. Who is Rigantona? To me she is a complex being that will answer to many names. And because she is complex I know that others will see different things within her than the ones I see.
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Post by Heron on Jun 7, 2010 21:28:24 GMT -1
Thinking about the question Potia set a while back about our relationship with Rigantona, also set me thinking in general about how we develop relationships with the gods. I said at the time that I would want to give it more thought and having been away since then, have only had a chance to think intermittently about it. But here’s a shot at some sort of more detailed response: The first thing to say is that I know her familiarly as Rhiannon, although I sometimes address her formally as Rigantona. Rhiannon is, after all, the current Welsh form of the name and, so, it seems to me as a Welsh speaker the natural form to use. This is also the name that I first came to know her by. It’s a bit like getting to know someone as ‘John’ and then finding that they are also known as ‘Mr Jones’. You acknowledge Mr Jones as the person you know as John, but he is always John to you. I felt close to Rhiannon long before I knew anything about Rigantona or Epona. Just as personal friends have multiple identities, not all of which you as a friend are involved with, so the gods inhabit different contexts some of which may be at the periphery of your involvement with them. So Rigantona, with knowledge of the linguistic development of Celtic, sets Rhiannon in a specific historical and theological context; Epona also sets her in a slightly different cultural context. It might be objected that while both Rigantona and Epona are specifically identified as divinities, Rhiannon is, rather, a fictional character in some medieval stories. I’m sensitive to this argument, but again would say that ‘Rigantona’ in modern Welsh is ‘Rhiannon’ and it’s a living name attached to some living people. But also that it is through those stories about her that I first consciously knew her. And this is one way that we might begin to become aware of the personality of a god. When I first publicly identified myself as pagan in my late teens it was very much in the wiccan tradition with ‘The Goddess’ and ‘The God’ having different names and aspects but with no particular names prevailing except the ones the group I was part of had developed for our rituals. But Rhiannon, almost without me realising it, began to feel close and to be the culturally identifiable expression of ‘The Goddess’ in my experience of her. Although it was not part of a conscious intention at the time to promote her above others, I found myself writing a story about her which was published as long ago as 1975! It was as much as if she had found me as I had found her. The character of Rhiannon in those stories was increasingly the character of The Goddess in my evolving sense of the mythos. All this was compounded when I had one of the few vivid visionary experiences that have happened to me which involved a white horse galloping across the road in front of me. I am unsure to this day whether or not I was ‘seeing things’, whether or not it was an actual horse escaped from a field or a vision in the pre-dawn after I had been up all night; both seem equally probable. But I know that the horse was communicating something directly to me and that I needed to respond. This happened at a time in my life when, it seems, I was more open to such experiences. It is, anyway, a long time since I have had any experience of such intensity. But I have lived most of my life since then building on those experiences and trying to live out what they gave to me. This includes living with Rhiannon as, I suppose you could call it, a constant presence, sometimes close, sometimes not so close, but there. The literary analogy that best captures this as an ideal is that between Odysseus and Athena in The Odyssey. I’m not sure I could actually live up to that, even as an analogy. But it is something to live for. And, although this too is a fictionalised story from another tradition, it is one that provides a template from the pagan past of how a human can have a relationship with a goddess. He asks her: “Stand beside me Athena …” and “Grey eyes ablaze, the goddess urged him on: ‘Surely I’ll stand beside you, not forget you’ ” (13, 445 >) She is as close as breath. I have argued in a talk I gave on Robin Hood ( files.me.com/teyrnon/bkusd7 ) that the Virgin Mary functions in a similar way for him in the early ballads where she precedes Maid Marion. But that is another story.
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Post by megli on Jun 7, 2010 22:07:25 GMT -1
I like this description very much. Especially the Athena analogy. (I always think that scene in the extended FOTR where Galadriel talks to Aragorn and toches his face is how any film of the Odyssey should *feel* about the relationship between the goddess and the hero.)
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Post by dreamguardian on Jun 7, 2010 23:47:49 GMT -1
I have argued in a talk I gave on Robin Hood ( http://files.me.co./teyrnon/bkusd7 ) that the Virgin Mary functions in a similar way for him in the early ballads where she precedes Maid Marion. But that is another story. Thanks for your post, heron. It's insightful as always but I couldn't access your link.
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Post by potia on Jun 8, 2010 8:01:35 GMT -1
Thanks Heron. I think from what you write that we have similar ways of relating to Rigantona. Different personal names and differing expereinces but a picture of a relationship that seems very similar to mine.
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Post by Heron on Jun 8, 2010 19:39:24 GMT -1
I have argued in a talk I gave on Robin Hood ( http://files.me.co./teyrnon/bkusd7 ) that the Virgin Mary functions in a similar way for him in the early ballads where she precedes Maid Marion. But that is another story. Thanks for your post, heron. It's insightful as always but I couldn't access your link. Sorry, small typing error in the link address. I've modified the link in the post and here it is again: files.me.com/teyrnon/bkusd7
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Post by Blackbird on Jun 10, 2010 15:43:50 GMT -1
I'm not sure that asking whether these are the same Gods is really a worthwhile question. Does it matter? And how could we ever reach a firm answer, given that the gods are generally capricious and mysterious to us?
To take Lee's analogy, not only do we as humans have several names and interests, but we also behave very differently in different situations. To my sword students I am (probably) slightly scary, energetic and gung ho. When playing at weddings, I have to be far more reserved, very polite and infinitely patient. When I'm in the pub with my friends, I'm a different person again.
I wonder if three different people, who had only met me in one of these different situations, could have a conversation about "the lunatic with a sword", "the quiet, polite harpist" and the "drunken eejit" and not realise that they were actually talking about the same person?
As polytheists, the relationships we have with our gods tend to be very personal and I don't think it matters whether or not we are honouring the same god, given that what we get out of that relationship (and what we put into it!) can be very different.
I usually call Her the Grey Lady, as I can't shake off my superstitious horror about naming names (even though I know they are all titles, yadda yadda), except in very private situations.
As to whether or not they are the same Lady - the speculation is always fun, but ultimately, it doesn't matter.
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 2, 2010 9:18:40 GMT -1
I dunno. I knew (and still know) a couple of Rhiannons growing up, and every time someone waves a wand or raises a cup to Rhiannon I automatically think of them! Its kind of like: if there was a guy called Jesus in your street, and your friend said "I saw Jesus the other day" you would automatically think of the Middle-Eastern gentleman with nails in his hands. It's subconscious and automatic and you can't help it. Epona.. never really got this name either. I suppose it's because I read early on in life that it was a Gaulish name. I've looked for Epona but never found her. However, Rigantona is a title that I can connect with easily, primarily I guess because it isn't tainted by previous experiences or prompting. It feels "right". Whether that is me or her is anyone's guess (Then again, I'm fussy like that. If I was a Christian I'd have to do it in Latin/Greek/Hebrew with full ritual, rather than getting happy-clappy in English)
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Post by Heron on Jul 2, 2010 19:45:20 GMT -1
I know what you mean Teg. I know a couple of women called Rhiannon too. But that makes the name more human somehow. With gods there is a balance to be achieved between 'otherness' and being 'close'. Rigantona gives the former. Rhiannon the latter.
On 'Jesus', this name is course often used in Spain where I once met someone called Jesus Gonzalez. Athena, Persephone and other names of Greek goddesses are not uncommon in Greece. Freyja can often be encountered in Scandinavia.
I take the point of the distinction between the full Latin rite in christianity and the 'happy clappy' mob but don't really buy in in respect of the distinction between Rigantona and Rhiannon. That is, I can see how such a distinction could develop but don't find it to be a necessary one.
But, as you suggest, there's no substitute to what feels right. I can imagine a full, formal rite for Rigantona on one level and a personal relationship with Rhiannon on another. But hardly 'happy clappy' stuff in either case.
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Post by Tegernacus on Jul 2, 2010 21:17:40 GMT -1
I tagged that on to say I was fussy, not that Rigantona is correct and everything else isn't! I just have a strict "set in my ways" way of doing things is what I meant. If I feel something is correct then I fix it. or fixate on it. One of the other
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