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Post by Francis on Jun 6, 2011 9:47:24 GMT -1
Lee, adding to the landscape section soulds a good idea. Look forward to seeing your draft for it  Yes looking forward to reading your thoughts. Let's not 'pad it out' for the sake of width though. I think it a document like this needs to be kept succinct and focused. Den, translating into Welsh - why? Personally I'm not keen on that idea. Personally I think this is a good idea. The connection is inescapable. What anxieties do you have about the suggestion Potia? Deniol I wonder if your colloquial 'kitchen' welsh might not actually be more appropriate than something more literary? I won't bang on about why I like the idea though until I hear back from Potia, other than to say I think it would add to the inclusivity of resonance with potential members - not to any exclusivity or ranking. |
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Post by potia on Jun 6, 2011 10:27:25 GMT -1
Den, translating into Welsh - why? Personally I'm not keen on that idea. Personally I think this is a good idea. The connection is inescapable. What anxieties do you have about the suggestion Potia? I accept that the connection is inescapable yes but to me the idea of providing such a core document in Welsh actually makes me feel slightly marginalised. This is an issue I am particularly sensitive to so I admit that I may be over-reacting but I can't help the way this idea makes me feel. Brython isn't solely about the land and gods of Wales but about the whole of Britian. Yes, most of the group have strong ties to Wales. Keeping the language and culture of that land alive is as important to me as keeping Scots and Gaelic alive in Scotland is but Welsh is not a language or culture shared by all members of Brython any more than Gaelic or French. Our common language is English. If we are to start translating material into other languages then we need to ask ourselves why we are doing it and what impression it could give not just to those within Wales but to those living outside it. |
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Post by Francis on Jun 6, 2011 11:21:51 GMT -1
I accept that the connection is inescapable yes but to me the idea of providing such a core document in Welsh actually makes me feel slightly marginalised. This is an issue I am particularly sensitive to so I admit that I may be over-reacting but I can't help the way this idea makes me feel. There is already a considerable amount of content on the Brython Website all of which is in English alone. We're talking about one document - our Core Value document being present on the website in both English and Welsh. One page out of all that content present in both English and Welsh and that makes you feel marginalised?? I just don't really know how to respond to that.... You know I would never want to make you feel uncomfortable Potia and I would hope you know there isn't much I wouldn't do for you, but I would ask you to at least spend some more time reflecting on why you feel the way you do about this. Brython isn't solely about the land and gods of Wales but about the whole of Britian. I think this conflates Wales as it is political boundaries exist today with some other view of the relationship between Brythonic culture and a large part of these islands. Yes, most of the group have strong ties to Wales. Keeping the language and culture of that land alive is as important to me as keeping Scots and Gaelic alive in Scotland is but Welsh is not a language or culture shared by all members of Brython any more than Gaelic or French. I'm glad it's important to you and I appreciate it must be difficult for you to balance it being important to you with a feeling that it marginalises you in some way? French is a very different issue. Perhaps if we were specifically looking to recruit members we might do that but it doesn't strike me as either relevant to this discussion or appropriate for us at this time. Perhaps a translation of our Core values document into Gaelic might be a reasonable idea at some point in the future? Our common language is English. If we are to start translating material into other languages then we need to ask ourselves why we are doing it and what impression it could give not just to those within Wales but to those living outside it. You seem to imply that some sort of negative impression might be created by having a single document out of all the many pages on the Brython website in both English and Welsh. In what way? As you say Wales as it exists politically and geographically today isn't particularly relevant to Brython. It certainly holds no precedence or rank. Brython is about these islands as they are as a whole today and as they were historically. I see no problems with all the languages of these British isles (including the goedelic) being present in some way on our website in the future - and our Core Values document seems an appropriate place to me. There would be no intention in the presence of a single page of Welsh to marginalise any, but to be inclusive. It is a courtesy to many who might resonate with what I think we're trying to achieve here. I wouldn't want to see documents present on the website exclusively in a language not shared by the rest of the group - that would be quite different. To be honest (and I would hope you wouldn't wish me to be anything else) I don't pretend not to be dissapointed by this response, and its implications, to Deiniol's suggestion. |
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Post by nellie on Jun 6, 2011 12:01:20 GMT -1
I don't feel strongly either way about the question of translation but if there was to be a translation into welsh it would also be appropriate to have other translations into Gaelic, Cornish etc I think?
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Post by redraven on Jun 6, 2011 12:26:43 GMT -1
I don't have a problem with a Welsh translation, as I wouldn't for a gaelic translation if anyone had the ability and wish to create such a thing. As the core values are our central doctrine, so to speak, it would seem to me to be appropriate to make it as accessible to everyone as we can reach and if a Welsh translation helps with that, then I consider such a translation to be a good thing.
RR
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Post by potia on Jun 6, 2011 12:59:11 GMT -1
Firstly can I ask that one of the mods split this topic so that this discussion doesn't swamp other comments about the content of the Core Values document? I could take it private but having started this in public I feel it's only right to continue this in public. I accept that the connection is inescapable yes but to me the idea of providing such a core document in Welsh actually makes me feel slightly marginalised. This is an issue I am particularly sensitive to so I admit that I may be over-reacting but I can't help the way this idea makes me feel. There is already a considerable amount of content on the Brython Website all of which is in English alone. We're talking about one document - our Core Value document being present on the website in both English and Welsh. One page out of all that content present in both English and Welsh and that makes you feel marginalised?? Yes it's only one page but it's also one that is fundamental to our identity as a group. I just don't really know how to respond to that.... You know I would never want to make you feel uncomfortable Potia and I would hope you know there isn't much I wouldn't do for you, but I would ask you to at least spend some more time reflecting on why you feel the way you do about this. This is hard to explain but I will do my best knowing that between us lies the honest desire to understand each other and not to offend. From my first contact with CF and this group I had my doubts about whether I could fit in. Rightly or wrongly it was not very clear to me then that Brython was about whole of mainland Britain. It came across as more of Wales and Welsh culture than anything and while I respect that I was not sure at that time that this was a place in which I could belong. In parts of the pagan community in Scotland when I talk of Brython I still get comments and questions about why I'm connected with something so Welsh instead of Scottish so I am aware that I am not alone in that initial mis-perception. I'm glad it's important to you and I appreciate it must be difficult for you to balance it being important to you with a feeling that it marginalises you in some way? If I lived in Wales I would be delighted at my children learning Welsh in school and I would do my best to learn with them. I have attempted to learn a little Gaelic but made a very poor job of it so far and Scottish culture where both Scots and Gaelic are concerned is behind the efforts being made in Wales to preserve the language and culture. This is related to other issues I sometimes face being an English migrant in an aspect of Britian that has a strong and proud national identity of its own and rightly so I might add. I am only now really beginning to reflect more on my perceptions of national identity and why I have often felt uncomfortable with the idea of being English as opposed to British or Scottish. I find it can be embarassing to be English. I find myself explaining apologetically that although I have spent over half my life in Glasgow my accent is still very much that of Southern England. In my experience the majority of Scots are very proud of being Scottish and I am sure it is the same in Wales. Being English is something I have denied being in the past even though the vast majority of my heritage is English. Perhaps a translation of our Core values document into Gaelic might be a reasonable idea at some point in the future? I would have been much happier if the initial suggestion had been to translate the document into both Welsh and Gaelic. And if the decision is made to provide a Welsh translation I would hope we could arrange a Gaelic translation too sooner rather than later. Our common language is English. If we are to start translating material into other languages then we need to ask ourselves why we are doing it and what impression it could give not just to those within Wales but to those living outside it. You seem to imply that some sort of negative impression might be created by having a single document out of all the many pages on the Brython website in both English and Welsh. In what way? I certainly didn't intend to imply that a negative impression might be created but I do think it could give an impression that Wales and Welsh were more important to the group than other areas of Britain. For many of the group that is the case and certainly Wales has come to mean much more to me than it did but I wouldn't like the group to be giving an impression that any one area was more important to the group as a whole than any other area. [Edit: and re-reading this for the umpteenth time I realise that only having things in English might make it seem that somehow English is seen as more important by both Welsh and Gaelic speakers even though it is the only shared languageof the group] As you say Wales as it exists politically and geographically today isn't particularly relevant to Brython. It certainly holds no precedence or rank. Brython is about these islands as they are as a whole today and as they were historically. I see no problems with all the languages of these British isles (including the goedelic) being present in some way on our website in the future - and our Core Values document seems an appropriate place to me. If we are going to do this for all the languages of the British isles then yes I totally agree our Core Values document would be an excellent piece to do this with. There would be no intention in the presence of a single page of Welsh to marginalise any, but to be inclusive. It is a courtesy to many who might resonate with what I think we're trying to achieve here. Not for one moment did I believe that there was any intent to marginalise anyone in Deiniol's suggestion. I wouldn't want to see documents present on the website exclusively in a language not shared by the rest of the group - that would be quite different. Agreed. Although as examples of personal practice in the form of hymns or poems I wouldn't mind then but I'd ask for a translation even if just for my own personal use. To be honest (and I would hope you wouldn't wish me to be anything else) I don't pretend not to be dissapointed by this response, and its implications, to Deiniol's suggestion. I am sorry to have caused you or indeed any Welsh speaker here disappointment at my response - such was not my intention. Of course I want you to be honest with me just as I hope you would wish me to be honest with you. I am not against the idea of translating the Core Values document into other languages in this land if it is to be more than one language. Where I become uncomfortable is with it being translated into only one of those languages as to me that does imply a higher precedence for that particular culture and language than others in the wider land. I would have had similar feelings if someone had suggested translating it only into Gaelic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 23:19:21 GMT -1
I also feel that translating the core values into only one language does suggest that language is more central to Brython than any other. However, I also feel that no-one should be prevented from offering something that's of benefit to others. Maybe it would make sense to translate the core values to Welsh and add a request for a translation into Gaelic on the page. That way it clearly communicates the relevance of both languages to Brython and some kind Gaelic speaking person may even offer a translation |
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Post by Craig on Jun 13, 2011 13:22:37 GMT -1
And how many faeries can dance on the head of a pin?
People, please, just allow the translation into welsh. As we gain members able to do other British languages then we can add them as well.
As it happens Welsh is central to the culture and beliefs of many members, including many of the founders. To deny it's place in case we upset a few people from other parts of the UK and abroad is ridiculous.
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Post by Craig on Jun 13, 2011 13:24:29 GMT -1
By the same argument we should not use extracts of the Mabinogion here, in case we upset the Welsh (?).
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Post by redraven on Jun 13, 2011 17:19:48 GMT -1
As it happens Welsh is central to the culture and beliefs of many members, including many of the founders. Can you clarify please, if this refers to the founders of this modern Brython group or the founders of the Brythonic islands of history? (Without wanting to imply any sort of tonality with this question!) RR |
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Post by Craig on Jun 14, 2011 17:19:17 GMT -1
Can you clarify please, if this refers to the founders of this modern Brython group or the founders of the Brythonic islands of history? (Without wanting to imply any sort of tonality with this question!) RR The modern Brython group RR. |
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Post by dreamguardian on Jun 14, 2011 17:37:23 GMT -1
....People, please, just allow the translation into welsh. As we gain members able to do other British languages then we can add them as well. As it happens Welsh is central to the culture and beliefs of many members, including many of the founders. To deny it's place in case we upset a few people from other parts of the UK and abroad is ridiculous. We need to get the content correct first, Craig. We're still adjusting and tweaking at the moment. I'll happily get it translated and promoted in Wales, especially Welsh speaking media |
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