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Post by Lee on Jan 6, 2016 22:25:23 GMT -1
I like it. I should be in bed so will read again and comment more fully tomorrow. I reckon though that we need to include 'spirits of place/ungods' at some point to at least include them.
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Post by lorna on Jan 7, 2016 12:02:22 GMT -1
@ Heron - I'm very happy with this so far.
@ Lee - Yes, I also think it could be extended to add spirits of place.
Ungods? - is this a term we are all agree on? I personally don't use the term but understand it to refer to the spirits of Annwn and perhaps underworld gods as a whole. My preferred term (stolen from Will Parker) is Annuvian gods. But I generally just use 'gods' to refer Gwyn and other ungods / Annuvian deities. Do we need to draw this distinction? I'm happy to go with the consensus.
@ General
Do we need to mention fairies?
What about ancestors?
Of course the distinctions between all these categories can get rather blurry and arguable and perhaps 'deities' covers them all.
Is this the right place to mention that having lived relationships with the gods inspires us to act - whether it's by defending our engodded landscapes (and underworlds) from fracking, sharing the stories of our deities in our communities or planting trees or holding rituals etc. ?
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Post by lorna on Jan 7, 2016 12:12:18 GMT -1
As Heron has taken the lead on the definition I'll start putting together a template for deity 'statues' / sketches. I think we should keep these brief, accessible, and as factual as possible. So I propose:
Name of deity (including meaning and interpretation of name):
Known Roles:
Archaeological evidence:
Myths and stories:
Modern Worship:
Is there anything you would like to change or anything I've missed?
Then we need to decide who's doing who (no scrapping!)
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Post by Lee on Jan 13, 2016 16:51:47 GMT -1
I just want to gloat at figuring out how to stop menu items being clickable and only the daughter items being clickable. That has been annoying me for 3 years Oh...also finished reformatting everything. As nice as the fancy writing for pages/sections was, it was a pig of a nuisance. Must also add Heather's Gwyn video tonight
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Post by Heron on Jan 13, 2016 19:40:57 GMT -1
The site is looking really good - nice clean lines and accessible format.
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Post by Francis on Jan 14, 2016 19:39:48 GMT -1
Do we need to mention fairies? Absolutely! Is this the right place to mention that having lived relationships with the gods inspires us to act - whether it's by defending our engodded landscapes (and underworlds) from fracking, sharing the stories of our deities in our communities or planting trees or holding rituals etc. ? Yes I agree - and of course stating the importance of these relationships inspiring actual action and direction in our lives.
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Post by Lee on Jan 14, 2016 21:25:30 GMT -1
So fairies... I might be being a bit prissy with this but this term grates a bit on me these days, mainly because of the way it conjures all the wrong images and has done from decades of pagan abuse/artwork.
what do we means when WE are talking about fairies? I guess this coming back to the question of taxonomy of spirits.
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Post by lorna on Jan 15, 2016 12:04:20 GMT -1
I'm wondering if we should use 'tylwyth teg' rather than fairies? Here in Lancashire fairy is the most commonly used word although the old word was 'feeorin'. We also have a good share of boggarts and dobbies and spectral black dogs. Dictionary.com says: Fairy - (in folklore) one of a class of supernatural beings, generally conceived as having a diminutive human form and possessing magical powers with which they intervene in human affairs. Not so keen on diminutive. Word Origin and History for fairy n. c.1300, fairie, "enchantment, magic," from Old French faerie "land of fairies, meeting of fairies, enchantment, magic," from fae "fay," from Latin fata (plural) "the Fates," from PIE *bha- "to speak" (see fame (n.)). I can go with this particularly in relation to glamoury. Interestingly many of our gods and goddesses later become known as rulers of the fairies - Gwyn, possibly Creiddylad and Rhiannon. It seems Faerie replaces Annwn. The terms Tylwyth Teg and fairies may refer to the spirits of Annwn. In contrast to nature spirits they have the ability to move between worlds and inhabit a world of their own. Interestingly the transitions between summer and winter marked by Gwyn and Gwythyr's battle are echoed by the movements between summer and winter 'courts'. Are fairies gods and goddesses, chthonic spirits, ancestors, perhaps all?... In terms of 'wrong images' I guess you're referring to the butterfly wings and identification of fairies with plant spirits or 'devas'? And Disney fairies...
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Post by Francis on Jan 15, 2016 12:29:21 GMT -1
So fairies... I might be being a bit prissy with this but this term grates a bit on me these days, mainly because of the way it conjures all the wrong images and has done from decades of pagan abuse/artwork. It's difficult because this perception people have is very difficult to shake - and mental imagery is so important. what do we means when WE are talking about fairies? I guess this coming back to the question of taxonomy of spirits. Of course this is the key - what do we mean by fairies or even the Land of Faerie? I think Alex might have something useful to say about that from a strictly English point of view? I believe there's no need for any sort of taxonomy - certainly no phylogenetic trees - aside from brief descritions! Of course I don't hide from the fact that I see no qualitative difference between what I see as Spirits of Place/Craft and those spirits many describe as gods. Are the Tylwyth Teg different from SoP - I think they are. I believe they are entirely independent - but I have so vanishingly little experience of them that I'm not in a position to add anything useful.
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Post by mooncrone on Jan 19, 2016 15:36:17 GMT -1
As a new comer to this site, I have just started to learn my away around, and have tried, today, to get my head around this topic, I have to admit it's very... deep... and quite... overwhelming... I have so very little I can add to the... academic debate...
however, I also pick up on your enthusiasms for it,
I pick up on, "if it's meant to happen, it will happen" and I pick up on "if the Gods say so mote it be, then so mote it be" and it will be.
Does that make sense to anyone?
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Post by Lee on Jan 19, 2016 21:40:25 GMT -1
I have drafted this out for the front page of the site, haven't hit publish yet as i want to run the idea past you all: We aim to be a leading resource for Brythonic polytheism; not only in terms of academic resource and background to the gods and goddesses of these islands, but also in bringing together devotional material from a number of writers and devotees. On these pages you will find hymns, poetry, songs and rituals written expressly for the devotional work of Brythonic polytheists.
We want more! If you are interested in or are already a devotee of these gods and want to share your work with others, please feel free to contribute to the Brython site. You can get in touch with us using the contact form below. Either as a means of sending your devotional work for inclusion (fully attributed), or to request the sorts of material or information you would like to see on here - we can and will endeavour to add to our resource for those who are interested.
We will have a new blog starting in the spring on the site and hope to have articles, essays and devotional material added at least once or twice a month. We are also looking for contributors for this too. Please do get in touch for more information if you want to be involved. Might be a tad ambitious saying up to 2 pieces a month on the blog, but it isnt unreasonable. also, this might be how we get ore people involved too and set this thing out into the world a bit.
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Post by Heron on Jan 20, 2016 16:24:18 GMT -1
I have drafted this out for the front page of the site, haven't hit publish yet as i want to run the idea past you all: We aim to be a leading resource for Brythonic polytheism; not only in terms of academic resource and background to the gods and goddesses of these islands, but also in bringing together devotional material from a number of writers and devotees. On these pages you will find hymns, poetry, songs and rituals written expressly for the devotional work of Brythonic polytheists.
We want more! If you are interested in or are already a devotee of these gods and want to share your work with others, please feel free to contribute to the Brython site. You can get in touch with us using the contact form below. Either as a means of sending your devotional work for inclusion (fully attributed), or to request the sorts of material or information you would like to see on here - we can and will endeavour to add to our resource for those who are interested.
We will have a new blog starting in the spring on the site and hope to have articles, essays and devotional material added at least once or twice a month. We are also looking for contributors for this too. Please do get in touch for more information if you want to be involved. Might be a tad ambitious saying up to 2 pieces a month on the blog, but it isnt unreasonable. also, this might be how we get ore people involved too and set this thing out into the world a bit. I think we have to reach out and canvass others who might be able to contribute if we want to be the face of Brythonic Polytheism. So the idea is a good one. Two pieces month might be ambitious if we have to keep it up, and blogging regularly will depend on enough of us having something to say! But I think we should jump in a the deep end and give it a try.
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Post by lorna on Jan 20, 2016 19:30:34 GMT -1
@lee, this sounds good and I'm also all in favour of being more open One sentence that isn't quite making sense for me: 'On these pages you will find hymns, poetry, songs and rituals written expressly for the devotional work of Brythonic polytheists.' Do you mean written to express the experiences of Brythonic polytheists? Or written to create a collection of devotional work of Brythonic polytheists? I also think twice a month could be tough unless we get a lot of outside support, but who knows? I'd say fortnightly would work better to keep people's interest. Worth a shot!
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Post by Lee on Jan 20, 2016 21:27:17 GMT -1
yeah, twice monthly is ambitious - but it is only 24 pieces (whether hymn, essay, poem etc) in a year. If we can get a few pieces ready to go - say 3 months or so worth, then we can also work on getting people interested and contributing but also invite certain people who we would like to see contributing. if we can each get 2 posts pre-prepared over the next 3 months, that is post up until the summer covered. lorna - um, I have no idea what I meant :s perhaps change it to "On these pages you will find hymns, poetry, songs and rituals written to be used for the devotional work of Brythonic polytheists." So, who do we think we should invite to do a piece? Oh, and should we be at all discerning about what gets posted?
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Post by mabinogishan on Jan 21, 2016 7:41:51 GMT -1
I would love to participate in this if you don't mind as it draws on my beloved craft of writing, and my favourite philosophies. Heron's brilliant draft has done the difficult work of making a strong core statement. My blue pencil is secretarial, about wordcraft, its nuances. In particular as I teach teenagers who often have limited vocabulary and cannot absorb longer sentences, I have skill in making language into short units without over-simplifying what is said.
Brythonic Polytheism is a spiritual practice based on connection with one or more of the deities venerated worshipped by the Brythonic peoples inhabiting Britain and Gaul in the ancient and mediaeval periods.
Notes. Many people dislike the word 'religion' so using it right at the start is going to raise hackles. I suggest 'connection' here is shorter and neater. The term 'deities' is inclusive, where 'gods' though technically including goddesses, and the ungendered, intuitively does not. Many people are averse to the term 'worship' as it has connotations of submission, kowtowing. This is alien to the Brythonic ethos which is much more like dealing with powerful friends and allies. So I think 'veneration' conveys more of that dignity. The sources extend into the mediaeval periods; in fact there is more available from mediaeval MSS. than from older records.
Brythonic polytheists recognise a considerable range of goddesses and gods. These are typically drawn from historical records or x in x Britain and Gaul. Some x survived in later mediaeval stories and other writings, particularly the Welsh which were constructed from oral tales reflecting a continuity of reference from earlier times. 'attested' is lovely for the academic minded but a bit formidable for those who are not.
Polytheists x accept the presence of many deities beyond their personal experience. But as polytheism is an experiential spirituality, individual polytheists usually focus on x a small number of deities, or even a single deity, in their own practice. The appearance of a deity is multi-faceted, but can be seen in two ways:
- x Deity directly x experienced as a distinctive individual, often bound up with a sense of belonging to the land, and the deity's presence in the landscape. - x Deity as an x individual in traditional tales, myths, or images, x celebrated in the cultural life of a people.
So Brythonic polytheists continue to experience the presence of deities from the lands of Britain x, seeking relationships with them through that experience. They x continue to celebrate them by reconstructing earlier representations of them, from x folklore, poetry, tales and other cultural forms. These sources are used to shape new cultural expressions for our own time based on either individual insight or a shared social sense of their continuing presence for us, or both. Devotional practice develops from this making them an important part of our lives as lived from day to day as well as x special occasions.
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Post by mabinogishan on Jan 21, 2016 7:53:57 GMT -1
Maybe I got lost on the thread ... never mind I'll find my feet.
I was left wondering about the almost overwhelming emphasis on deities as so much of Brythonic tradition is not deity centred.
1) Deities are not at all like the classical gods and goddesses, remote puppeteers. I think people here are perhaps so used to that they are not making allowance for how most others are coming from Greek/ Latin or Judaeo/ Christian models. Brythonic deities are much less clear cut, much less distinct - Graham Harvey calls them ambivalent, especially goddesses. They are much more fluid anyway, probably because the personification traditions came late, from around the 1stC BCE onwards.
2) There are all the magical animals, and pixies, (who are not the Victorian cuties). Animals act as guides, or as warning monsters. antagonists. The pwca and similar live in our families, part of everyday life.
3) Brythonic spirituality is outstanding in how it enables a nameless, shapeless, condition of being in nature, or moving through to another side of being. The spirit of the place is part of this but even that is only part. There is a powerful motif of locality, the local. This ties into Cymru politics where inheritance split territory up between sons so as not to create large units. The lack of empire puzzles outsiders who then assume 'there were no Celts' when really it was a different world view.
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Post by Heron on Jan 21, 2016 14:24:52 GMT -1
I would love to participate in this if you don't mind as it draws on my beloved craft of writing, and my favourite philosophies. Heron's brilliant draft has done the difficult work of making a strong core statement. [.......] Thanks for you comment and suggestions. In fact I didn't make the original statement but just tried to re-draft it incorporating various comments which were made as part of the process of review. I'd just like to pick up on two of the points you make about 'religion' and 'worship', words with I agree do put some people off. 'Venerate' may well be a better word to use, though I suspect it might be no less off-putting to those who shy away from the implication of 'religion'. It's a difficult one. We are certainly not 'religious' in the unquestioning sense required by the so-called 'Abrahamic faiths'. We certainly emphasise experience over blind belief. But if we choose not to define that experience as religious we might be in danger of diffusing it into unfocused spirituality.
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Post by Heron on Jan 21, 2016 14:37:20 GMT -1
... I was left wondering about the almost overwhelming emphasis on deities as so much of Brythonic tradition is not deity centred. 1) Deities are not at all like the classical gods and goddesses, remote puppeteers. I think people here are perhaps so used to that they are not making allowance for how most others are coming from Greek/ Latin or Judaeo/ Christian models. Brythonic deities are much less clear cut, much less distinct - Graham Harvey calls them ambivalent, especially goddesses. They are much more fluid anyway, probably because the personification traditions came late, from around the 1stC BCE onwards. What we are trying to do is get closer to presenting them is ways in which we ourselves perceive them in distinction to those views. I think many are only 'ambivalent' and 'less distinctive' because their stories are less well-known. But this hardly applies to all, especially Rhiannon. 2) There are all the magical animals, and pixies, (who are not the Victorian cuties). Animals act as guides, or as warning monsters. antagonists. The pwca and similar live in our families, part of everyday life. We don't want to ignore these. But we are currently undertaking a deity review for the Brython website, hence the focus on identified deities in recent posts. 3) Brythonic spirituality is outstanding in how it enables a nameless, shapeless, condition of being in nature, or moving through to another side of being. The spirit of the place is part of this but even that is only part. There is a powerful motif of locality, the local. This ties into Cymru politics where inheritance split territory up between sons so as not to create large units. The lack of empire puzzles outsiders who then assume 'there were no Celts' when really it was a different world view. Yes, but not exclusively so. Early Roman religion is often said to have been focused the local numen rather than the grander gods until they took over the Greek pantheon and became a world power rather than a regional people. The inheritance part of Welsh traditional practice is certainly a factor. But current 'Cymru politics' seems more about centralisation within Wales by the Assembly Government.
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Post by Lee on Jan 21, 2016 22:34:21 GMT -1
Am i missing something, what are the 'x' representing here?
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