Taking sides

[lorna]

I have a question...

Have any of you found that your devotion to a particular deity has prevented you from interacting with others?

I've heard of Heathens who venerate the Vanir and have been 'banned' from connecting with the Aesir.

On a more personal level I've found my devotion to Gwyn has led me to feeling like I couldn't worship his rival, Gwythyr, although I acknowledge him. Another deity I am beginning to doubt I'll ever form a relationship with is Lugus because I've been led to believe he is not only euhemerised as Lleu Llaw Gyfes in medieval Welsh literature, but as Lleog, who allies with Arthur and his raiding party on their raid on Annwn and violates the cauldron of the Head of Annwn (Gwyn?) with his flashing sword.

Gwyn's never banned me from connecting with his antagonists but I'd feel like a bit of a traitor if I tried to form relationships with those who side against him. It's also my intuition they might not be keen to talk to a devotee of Gwyn (although maybe that's me being a petty minded human and gods are bigger than that?).

Does anyone else share similar experiences?

[Heron]

Jun 17, 2017 18:30:46 GMT -1 lorna said:

I have a question...

Have any of you found that your devotion to a particular deity has prevented you from interacting with others?

I've heard of Heathens who venerate the Vanir and have been 'banned' from connecting with the Aesir.

On a more personal level I've found my devotion to Gwyn has led me to feeling like I couldn't worship his rival, Gwythyr, although I acknowledge him. Another deity I am beginning to doubt I'll ever form a relationship with is Lugus because I've been led to believe he is not only euhemerised as Lleu Llaw Gyfes in medieval Welsh literature, but as Lleog, who allies with Arthur and his raiding party on their raid on Annwn and violates the cauldron of the Head of Annwn (Gwyn?) with his flashing sword.

Gwyn's never banned me from connecting with his antagonists but I'd feel like a bit of a traitor if I tried to form relationships with those who side against him. It's also my intuition they might not be keen to talk to a devotee of Gwyn (although maybe that's me being a petty minded human and gods are bigger than that?).

Does anyone else share similar experiences?

I never had any sense of gods ‘banning’ their worshippers from other gods, and this seems to be contrary to the principles of polytheism.

I think rather that the gods are complex beings who might have an apparently absolute identity for us in our particular culture at a particular point in history, but whose own lives and changes through time (differentially ours and theirs?), and therefore attitudes, are likely to be much more heterodox. Although aspects of the gods can manifest themselves as archetypes of e.g. ‘Love’, ‘War’, ‘Mother’, ‘Father’, ‘Trickster’ etc, I don’t think that restricts the gods in their own beings to just those aspects.

If gods, in our narratives, are in conflict with each other, I don’t think that means we have to take sides, or that a god would require us to have nothing to do with the conflicting god. It seems to me that the narrative of conflict represents a relationship that the gods have with each other - or maybe eve with other aspects of themselves - and that it might be possible for us to relate to each side of the ‘conflict’ as the way things are with the gods - part of our perception of their nature.

Inevitably some gods are going to be more congenial to individual humans, according to temperament , personality etc. But there are many stories of people finding apparently uncongenial gods in their lives and having to accept that the unexpected - even the inconceivable - has happened! It may also be possible that someone who deplores war and conflict might want nothing to do with a god of war but might find just such a god inspiring a campaign for peace, as this itself is a battle which such a god could take an interest in!

On Lugus specifically, I wouldn’t take Lleawc necessarily as a manifestation of him (Marged Haycock thinks his ‘name’ might be a descriptive epithet, something like ‘death-dealer’). Lleu Llaw Gyffes might well be an expression of Lugus (his name cannot be linked to Irish Lug(h) but could have developed from earlier Brythonic Lugus). But I’m not sure what we are to make of the Mabinogi story as a narrative of his mythos if he is the ‘same’ god as , or even a different expression of, the Gaulish Mercury partnered with Rosmerta as the “Great Provider’.

[potia]

It's not something that has come up with me so far but I don't think there would be a simple answer to this type of situation.

[Claudia]

I've never had this sort of restriction set on me. From a Norse/Heathen point of view, I have honoured Nerthus (Vanir) and more than one Aesir. In my Kemetic practices, Wesir (Osiris) and his brother Sutekh (Set) have never been bothered by each other. I even know of one devotee who only focuses on these two gods and they share a shrine!

I think some deities have restrictions and expectations but I'd be surprised if they issued an outright ban.

[lorna]

Thanks for sharing your opinions -

@ Heron 'If gods, in our narratives, are in conflict with each other, I don’t think that means we have to take sides, or that a god would require us to have nothing to do with the conflicting god. It seems to me that the narrative of conflict represents a relationship that the gods have with each other - or maybe eve with other aspects of themselves - and that it might be possible for us to relate to each side of the ‘conflict’ as the way things are with the gods - part of our perception of their nature.'

That's really interesting. I still light candles for Gwythyr and Creiddylad at mid-summer although my deeper loyalties like with Gwyn. The possibility of Gwyn and Gwythyr having been friends (as suggested by their appearance together in Orddu's story) and maybe even being related (it's been suggested they are twins) are even further being different aspects of each themselves is something I'm continuing to reflect on.

'Inevitably some gods are going to be more congenial to individual humans, according to temperament , personality etc. But there are many stories of people finding apparently uncongenial gods in their lives and having to accept that the unexpected - even the inconceivable - has happened! It may also be possible that someone who deplores war and conflict might want nothing to do with a god of war but might find just such a god inspiring a campaign for peace, as this itself is a battle which such a god could take an interest in!'

Yes, this rings very true. When I first came to polytheism I thought my deepest relationship would be with a deity congenial to my temperament and interests which was why I tried so hard to build a relationship with Brigantia with her being a fiery poetess of this northern land, only it didn't quite work. I was very, very, surprised when Gwyn showed up in my life as my patron as I know nothing about hunting beyond able to ride a horse and he's so wild and I'm so suburban. There's also the fact he's depicted as a warrior and I'm strongly anti-war. Whether it's because I see Gwyn through that filter I'm not sure, but I feel he's a god who, as a gatherer of the battle dead, regrets the atrocious loss of life in battle rather than driving it like, say, Odin... that seems to what he expresses in his words to Gwyddno, to me, anyhow.

@ Claudia - 'In my Kemetic practices, Wesir (Osiris) and his brother Sutekh (Set) have never been bothered by each other. I even know of one devotee who only focuses on these two gods and they share a shrine!'

That's really interesting and perhaps ties in with what Heron says about narratives of conflicts representing relationships that deities have with each other. Which I guess are essential parts of their stories and make them who they are. They're possibly better at accepting and perhaps embracing those conflicts than some of us are?

[gruffudd]

I've never heard of a god banning you from another god.

I'm not sure on other people but I personally wouldn't honour a god mindlessly to the point they'd have that authority over me. I'm not saying that's what you do, but rather I don't think this is expected of us from the gods. I see it more of a reciprocal relationship, we give praise and honour and I'm return they show us favour.

I believe the gods are above humanlike squabbling but exist in their mythology as our way to understand their opposing forces or facets, whichever may be the case.

Just my thoughts...