Mabon/maponus

[tenar]

The mabon thread got me thinking (always dangerous )

How much do we know about Mabon/Maponus? Has evidence just been found in Britain, or are there other places on the continent where he is known? Is it just the one instance where he is associated with Apollo?

It seems a little odd to me that mabinogi is said to mean 'the material pertaining to the god Maponus', when Mabon himself is not even a main character in Culhwch and Olwen, and doesn't appear to be in the four main stories. Do you think that the similarities with Pryderi mean they are the same person? Are Mabon son of Mellt and Mabon son of Modron the same person too?

Do you think it's likely that I'll run out of questions any time soon? ;D

[Blackbird]

lol, questions are good.

Yes, Maponus is found in Britain and in what is now France. MacKillop says that there is a possible inscription at Chamalieres. Otherwise in Britain, there is a shrine to 'Deo Mapono' at Chesterholm in Northumberland. There are also mentions of 'Apollo Maponus', and according to MacKillop, (though this isn't referenced), Maponus was "often linked with the Gaulish Apollo, especially Apollo Citharoedus."

Some do equate Rhiannon with Modron and thus Pryderi with Mabon. Indeed, there is a similar theme of a son stolen from his mother, though of course, Pryderi is not imprisoned. There is a theory, mentioned in the intro in my Jones and Jones Mabinogion, that originally the four branches were all concerned with the life and exploits of Pryderi.

We may have the same person in the figure of Angus Oc (Mac ind Oc) and I often wonder about Gweir, who is mentioned in Preiddeu Annwn, another mysterious prisoner... I wonder if he is the same Gweir mentioned in Triad 19, one of the Three Enemy Subduers of the Island of Britain, described as having Great Valour.

That particular meaning of Mabinogion is just one theory, and not one which is widely accepted - it could just as easily mean 'tales of youth'... children's stories. (I think the word Mabinogi came to mean simply 'story') LCG adopted the word for her collection, wrongly assuming Mabinogion to be the plural form of Mabinogi.

Mabon ap Mellt is interesting - Mabon son of Lightning. (Searches around for reference)... ah, it's Pa Gur again. This one keeps coming up at the moment, mostly in discussions about Palug's Cat. Strictly, the poem, which refers to Mabon ap Modron and Mabon ap Mellt, could be speaking of the same person. It has been suggested that Mellt could be the father of Mabon, making a comparison between Mabon and Apollo, sired by Zeus of the thunderbolts. Or it could be that two local names for the same person have been confused into two different heroes... or... or...

[tenar]

'Tales of youth' would make more sense

I have 'Myths and legends of the Celts' by Mackillop. He mentions that 'Maponos's name is found at healing springs, at least in Gaul' (although this isn't referenced either). So I suppose being associated with Apollo and healing springs is what links Maponos with the sun, and Apollo citharoedus would explain the Music/arts association.

If in the welsh triads Mabon is one of the 'three exalted prisoners of Britain', (and there's the similarity with Pryderi as well), maybe the whole 'prisoner' thing has some sort of symbolism behind it (though what I don't know )

Is there anywhere I can find a translation of the triads online? (gods forbid I might have to pay for anything ;D)

[Blackbird]

The triads are online at camelot.celtic-twilight.com/

The link won't display propery, as the site uses frames - you need to click on 'Camelot' and then on 'online resources', the triads are listed there.

Yes, I think there is definitely some meaning behind the 'prisoners'. Both Pryderi and Mabon were stolen at birth... almost like an otherworldly fosterage, though involuntary. However, Pryderi is not really a prisoner at all - at least, not in the tale as it now stands. It is tempting to see a seasonal theme, but the tales don't really bear that out. Pryderi is born and taken upon May Eve, and it seems to be that time of year when he returns to Rhiannon - the tale says that at the end of his fourth year, Teyrnon notices that the child resembles Pwyll and puts two and two together

Whereas Mabon is presumably a man when he is released from his prison, a prison that is definitely situated in the 'real' (lol!) world, at Caer Loyw near Gloucester. Mabon's lamentation is interesting: "Mabon son of Modron is here in prison, and none was ever so cruelly imprisoned in a prison house as I; neither Lludd Silver-Hand nor the imprisonment of Greid son of Eri." So yet more prisoners...

Gweir is different again, he seems to have been imprisoned within Caer Siddi. Preiddeu Annwn tells:

bu kyweir karchar gweir ygkaer sidi.
trwy ebostol pwyll aphryderi.
Neb kyn noc ef nyt aeth idi.
yr gadwyn trom las kywirwas ae ketwi.

Equipped was the prison of Gweir in the Mound Fortress,
throughout the account of Pwyll and Pryderi.
No one before him went into it,
And before the spoils of Annwfyn bitterly he sang.

What to make of it all, I'm not sure...

[tenar]

Thanks for the link, it's now on the ever-growing list of things to read

I found this little snippet in the notes to 'Preideu Annwn' online (by Sarah Higley)

"In Y Gododdin, by Aneirin, Taliesin is referred to as one "who knows it"--possibly as a fellow "seer" who went through a poetic initiation described by Aneirin as an imprisonment underground"

I can't seem to find the line she might be refering to, but I thought it might be interesting. If the imprisonment thing has no obvious seasonal symbolism, and Mabon is kept in Gloucester rather than the otherworld, maybe it's a reference to an initiation of some sort?

[Blackbird]

mmm, perhaps. Though I'm not convinced about that I suppose the question would have to be 'initiated into what?' For some, such as Taliesin, it might be a reference to initiation, or at least, to the inspiration for poetry coming from Caer Siddi and the cauldron within - cf Defence of the Chair:

My chair is in Caer Siddi
Where no one is afflicted with age or illness...

But - Pryderi was not a bard. Mabon ap Modron may have been - a lyre player perhaps, if the comparison between himself and Apollo holds water - but he is not known primarily as a word-smith. If Gweir was known as a bard, that information has not survived. It might be initiation into manhood, I suppose - the child released into the adult world - but that seems a bit far fetched.

I've looked all the way through my copy of Y Gododdin, and can't find a reference to Taliesin - surprising, as I get the impression that Sarah Higley knows what she's talking about.

[tenar]

The only reference to Taliesin I could find in it was this one online-

"My hands are bound,
In the earthen house,
With an iron chain
Around my two knees.
Yet of the mead from the horn,
And of the men of Catraeth,
I, Aneurin, will compose,
As Taliesin knows,
An elaborate song,
Or a strain to Gododdin,
Before the dawn of the brightest day." (W.F.Skene)

Which does seem to mention an imprisonment of a sort, but I can't see initiation anywhere, so I'm inclined to agree that it might be a bit far-fetched.

Maybe they were all caught drug-smoking and got locked up

[Blackbird]

lol, or didn't pay their council tax...

I'm tending more towards the idea of this being a kind of fosterage. Being prosaic about it, Mabon was taken from his mother when three nights old, but was not seen until his release from prison by Arthur. Yet he is known to Ysbaddaden as the greatest living huntsman - so he's obviously not spent his whole life locked up in a cell. Makes me wonder if this is a kind of otherworldly fosterage taking place - the child reared by the gods/fae folk until manhood is reached.

Not quite the case with Pryderi - but then, we don't have to be looking for an identical 'lost myth' , just an idea that a. Children can be taken by otherworldly beings - and b. the notion of fosterage, which was common in Britain and Ireland into Medieval times, I think? The idea that children can be taken is laid out most clearly in the idea of the changeling...

[tenar]

The idea of the changling seems to be a fairly common folklore thing, and in the Mabinogi it says that it was a 'great claw' that was stealing Teyrnon's colts and left Pryderi, which certainly sounds a little otherworldly to me.

Thankyou for your help-although as usual I have more to think about than I started with

[Brochfael]

If memory serves, Teyrnon cuts fo the claw and purues the creature outside but it outruns him. When he returns, the claw is gone and the baby Pryderi is there instead perhaps suggesting an entity made up of lost souls or something?

[Blackbird]

Interesting thought!

My theory is that there is something going on here which has been lost in translation down the ages. The recurring horse theme is intruiging... Rhiannon seems to be both horse and woman and then the business with Pryderi and the colt. Note that Teyrnon loses a foal each year to this creature... why it should also be stealing human babies is not really explained in the story, unless we assume that Pryderi, as the son of Rhiannon, is horsey enough to be attractive to it?

But then, aside from being gifted the foal, Pryderi shows no more horse assocations throughout his adventures.

I have heard people speculating that in the original tale, Rhiannon (the name is cognate with Rigantona - Queen) was married to Teyrnon (Lord). But what the basis for that is, aside from the nobility of the names, I am unsure.

[Blackbird]

I've now updated the Encyclopaedia to include some of this info

[tenar]

Hmm...

In my copy (the Ford version) it seems to say that he pursued the sound of the creature untill he remembered that he had left the door open and so went back. It says he found the baby when he got back, but doesn't mention whether the claw was there or not

I like the idea that the creature was a horse-stealing thing, that took Pryderi because of his association with Rhiannon. Seems almost like a case of mistaken identitiy.

[Blackbird]

One more thought on the prisoner thing came while I was reading something unrelated yesterday:

That there is a good parallel between the events laid out in Preiddeu Annwn and Culhwch ac Olwen. If you strip away the non-essentials, both tales involve Arthur and a band of men making journeys into the Otherworld/NotQuiteThisWorld to pilfer miraculous items and rescue prisoners. The suggestion is that Preiddeu Annwn doesn't spell out events, as it would have been sung for an audience familiar with the story. It appears that part of the Preiddeu Annwn quest was to rescue Gweir, just as Mabon is rescued in C&O.

And the cauldron appears in both. In Preiddeu Annwn, its owner is not described, it is simply "Neu peir pen annwfyn" ie., the cauldron of the chief of Annwn. Presumably Arawn's, though the name is not mentioned. In C&O, the cauldron is that of Diwrnach the Irishman, "the overseer of Odgar son of Aedd king of Ireland." They go to Ireland in the ship Prydwen, as in Preiddeu Annwn. Unlike Preiddeu Annwn, the raid is not a disaster, but Arthur does lose several men throughout the C&O quests.

Additionally, there is the tantalising line in Preiddau Annwn, in the verse which describes the prison of Gweir: "Trwy ebostol pwyll aphryderi", hinting that there is a lost tale which links the imprisonment of Gweir with Pwyll and Pryderi.

Just some thoughts...

[Lee]

i have an excellent book by W J Gruffydd that gives an examination inot the myths around Rhiannon and pryderi etc.

he was apparently the foremost authority on welsh mythology back in the first half of the 20thC.

he equates mabon ap Modron with Rhiannon and Pryderi. the prisoner link occurrs in the 3rd branch when Pryderi gets trapped in the otherworld castle of llwyd (along with Rhiannon) to be rescued by manwyddan.

he also links Rhiannon with Teyrnon (mentioning that the -on ending is a bit of a giveaway that they were a god). what may have been occurring is that the baby was born of Rhiannon and 'Arawn' and taken away to be raised by Rhiannons consort and god teyrnon. eventually the baby who was named Gweir is brought back and renamed by Pwyll as pryderi.

it may well be that Pryderi ap Rhiannon is a more local version of the Mabon ap Modron myth.

oh and the genral concensus seems to be 'tales of youth' for the mabinogi, with Pryderi being the youth in question.

[Blackbird]

he also links Rhiannon with Teyrnon (mentioning that the -on ending is a bit of a giveaway that they were a god). what may have been occurring is that the baby was born of Rhiannon and 'Arawn' and taken away to be raised by Rhiannons consort and god teyrnon. eventually the baby who was named Gweir is brought back and renamed by Pwyll as pryderi.

I would dearly love to get hold of Gruffydd's book!

I agree that Teyrnon (I interpret this as 'Divine Lord') is certainly not all that he seems. But I can't see why Gruffydd feels the need to involve Arawn in the tale - it massively overcomplicates things.

The understanding that I've come to following these discussions is:

1. Rhiannon and Pwyll have a child

2. The child spends time in fosterage. Being the son of Rhiannon, his fosterage takes place in the Otherworld with Teyrnon. Thus the child born of both worlds is truly part of both.

3. When the period of fosterage is over, Gwri returns to his parents, where he receives a new name as he is born into manhood.

I'm not sold on the Gweir = Gwri thing. Out of interest, does anyone know what the meaning of Gweir's patronymic is? (ap Geirioedd)

[Lee]

i have begub to scan in the whole book (its ony 100 odd pages) and put it together in a powerpoint presentation. i have chapter 1 - intorduction done already - would you like me to email it to you??

if anybody else would like a copy, Pm me your email address and i will bung you a copy too.

with luck over the coming weeks i will do the whole book.

lee

[Lee]

i have Gruffydds other book on math ap mathonwy and the third branch on order with the library, along with the inquiry into branwen and the second branch by maccana (Gruffydd's protege) - im going to be a tad naughty and photocopy the lot. far cheaper than the couple of hundred £ it would cost to buy them.


Gruffydd inclusion of Arawn is quite important as he regards him as the father to gwri/pryderi and not pwyll. that part of the myth is pretty much Arawn tricking pwyll inot swopping places so he can bang Rhiannon. he gives a good account of his explanation and how it is very analogous to a similar tale in irish mythology. for instance, how did the King pwyll had to defeat know he was Pwyll when Arawns wife didnt spot the change?

it would account for the need to be fostered in the otherworld as both parents were otherworldly.

a side not - ive read somewhere that arawn is a title more than anything, and that the king of the otherworld might be Bran as per the cad Goddeu. though thats a different thread i fancy starting

[Brochfael]

Slightly off topic but I tend to see Rhiannon as sister to Arawn's wife (Possibly Arianrhod). Pwyll's ability to resist making love with Arawn's wife is suggested in an otherwise excreble novel as causing Arawb to grant Pwyll his heart's desire which of course is a wife as wonderful as Arawn's.