Cerridwen and piggy wiggies

[Lee]

there is a common idea that cerridwen is related to sows and pigs. i know Graves equated her with demeter who was associated with a white, corpse eating sow.

other than this im trying to find the source of the sow connection with cerridwen, i have a feeling it might be in the Book of taliesin.

anybody have any idea?

lee

[Blackbird]

Interesting - I've heard this too.

I've also heard people link Ceridwen with Henwen, for no reason that I can fathom other than the colour connection.

OK. I've had a look in John Matthew's book 'Taliesin' (pg 76-77), and I see where this is coming from.

He spends a while deciding that Ceridwen is a 'Hag Goddess'. This is one of my personal bugbanes. Yes, she is old. Older than old. But she is not a 'hag' as a human would understand it. In the Hanes Taliesin story, she is obviously a woman of childbearing age. I think we too easily confuse the immense age of some gods with how age affects a human... but the two are not the same at all. Imho

Anyhow. Got that off me chest. So.

Because Ceridwen is ancient - and white - she can then be connected with Henwen, which of course, literally translates as 'old-white'. He says that in some versions of the Taliesin story, Morda is called Dalben, which then corresponds with the Dallben of the Henwen triad. Whether or not that is true, I know not.

So that seems to be the basis for the argument. But as with so many of John Matthews' arguments, it's more wobbly than a house of cards in a draughty hallway

[tenar]

I'm probably missing something really obvious here-but why is Ceridwen associated with the colour white?

[Lee]

her name is sometimes interpreted as the 'wen' being white. her name has a stack of possible interpretations depending on who you beleive.

gotta dash, will post later

[tenar]

Thanks- I thought it was probably her name or something obvious like that

[Lee]

'crooken white' is one possibility that springs to mind, to be honest i cant seem to find any good and reliable translation of explanation that gives a connection to pigs.

if the pig connection is there then of course it might be worth looking at the connection with Henwen and the Hwch gwta Ddu as they are interestingly opposing figures (though the antiquity of the Hwch ddu might be questionable)

lee

[Blackbird]

I don't know much about the Hwch gwta Ddu - except that it is a scary Calan Gaeaf apparition.

The idea of the black and white pigs being connected is tempting, I agree - but I think Henwen already embodies any duality within her own self. After all, she gives birth to both order and chaos. Order in the form of agriculture (ie. wheat and bees, barley and bees) , and chaos in the form of her unwelcome womb-burden, which included the destructive Palug's Cat.

Yes, it's the 'wen' bit that is white. However, many gods have titles that include 'white' or 'bright', so I can't see that Ceridwen and Henwen having the same word within them is evidence for further connection.

[Blackbird]

Found an interesting little article on the meaning of 'Ceridwen'. It's largely intended to debunk it as a suitable human name - but includes the idea that the name derives from ceiridd, a form of cerdd (poetry, song). Very appropriate, I feel - but being mostly rubbish at Cymraeg, I'm not sure whether the idea stands up.

www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/ceridwen.shtml

[nellie]

Aren't there frequent appearances of characters with umbrellas is mummers plays and the like? Is this where this last rhyme originates? Any connections that other people can see? I remember Nigel Pennick having something to say about umbrellas in (I think!) the context of the mummers play, but darned if I can remember what it is, I just remember thinking it was a clever interpretion.
A pig is certainly an odd choice for a demon... Is Cerridwen firmly believed to be an acho of a goddess?

[Lee]

Pigs are definitely otherworldly; they came from the otherworld in myth. they were also an important animal in terms of animal husbandry and hunting. taking something so ssential nd important and making a demon of it is kind of perverse and in a weird way the obvious choice.

[Lee]

oh and nope, i don't think it is likely she is an echo of an older goddess. i dont think there is anything to suggest so.

[nellie]

I admit I had thought that modern scholarship dismisses her as a goddess, but that is just a general statement I've picked up along the way, without ever really knowing anything about it or having looked into it, which is why I asked.
What is the ealiest mention of Cereidwen?

[Lee]

mainly a lack on iconography, inscription of counterpart from IE relgions. She doesnt appear in any substantial form until the mid 15thC tale of taliesin, i know she occurs in other poems possibly slightly earlier but always seems to be a sorceress. I used to have Bromwich's 'Triads' knocking about here which records when and where she appears in the literature.

in short, she has been blown out of proportion. she isnt by any suggestion a survival of an older goddess, she is a goddess who has been elevated to by people in the modern day who have swallowed a line by earlier writers. a google search will indicate how much inflation has gone on.

[nellie]

Interesting. A sort of Medea figure?

Still, maybe the literary Cerridwen was a convienient costume for a certain spirit. The question I guess is more if the spirit that people sense and decide to call 'Cerridwen' really has anything to do with pigs.

To be honest I often wonder more about Culhwch and pigs. You know the name, and the circumstances of his birth. I don't know what the experts say about Culhwch though? I know it is probably the earliest of the arthurian tales.
Has Culhwch any echo of the deity Lee calls Moccanos (Sorry have I got that right Lee?), or any relation to the various appearance of boars in celtic art (The stone carving of a human figure with a large boar on the front springs to mind almost instantly, but I can't remember where this was found?)
Or another case of pure coincidence?