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Post by tenar on Dec 7, 2005 17:02:28 GMT -1
O.K, I've just come back from a wander around Avebury, and saw something that annoyed me a bit (well, more than a bit, but I don't want to go off on a mad rant or anything ;D)
Between Silbury hill and the West Kennet longbarrow there is a small spring, in a little nook at the bottom of the hill. It should be a beautifull and peacefull place, but instead it looks like a cheap new-age tack shop gone wrong, due to the huge amount of offerings left there.
Some of the things I saw there included plastic beads, ribbons tied all over trees, plastic christmas decorations, general paganish tacky stuff and underwear.
Now I've given a few coins to springs sometimes, but I know when to stop; this place was so bad you could barely see the spring anymore, and some of it looked possibly dangerous to wildlife.
I did actually have a question before I started ranting...
What kinds of offerings do you/have you given in such places, if you ever have? What kind of things do you think are appropriate? Do you always make sure it's a non-poisonous, bio-degradable thing or does it depend on the place? It seems in pre-history there were all sorts of things deposited in rivers or springs in Europe-how do you balance the wish to do things in a similar way with the need to conserve and protect sacred places and their wildlife?
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Post by Lee on Dec 7, 2005 22:18:24 GMT -1
hiya Tenar,
to an extent i agree with you wholeheartedly. im of the opinion that IF you are going to leave an offering it should be biodegradeable or at least edible to local wildlife. the plasti beads, xmas decorations and synthetics are a definate no-no. i see no real harm in tying bits of cotton or wool to a tree - they are natural fibres and will rot, it also continues a loooong tradtion in this country.
its annoying that people who regard these places as sacred will leave crystals, tealights and general shite all over the place.
the best thing to do is to gather up all synthetics - maybe leave cotton or wool of biodegradeables and take them away with you. perhaps leave your own small offering. i think its a good way of showing the spirits of place you care - an occassional tidy up is a good idea.
in fact id recommend that anybody visiting a sacred site should take a plastic bag to gather any rubbish to take away. its nice to leave some small offering, but it should be done thoughtfully.
the difference between now and prehistory is that there are a lot more of us going to these places than in the past hence lots more rubbish. we should perhaps operate a system of regualr cleaning and renewal for the next bathc of offerings - become unofficial caretakers as it were.
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Post by tenar on Dec 8, 2005 6:29:10 GMT -1
I didn't remove any of it-I found myself a bit torn between wanting to throw all the candles and plastic away and feeling rude to disturb other peoples offerings I like the voluntary caretaker idea though. I did notice that there were no such problems just up the hill at the longbarrow, which itself had a sign on a post next to it, explaining how leaving non-biodegradable and potentialy poisonous things would disturb both the 'land spirits' and the environment, and also warns against climbing on the sarsens, so it seems the problem has been noted up there at least
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Post by Brochfael on Dec 8, 2005 8:39:59 GMT -1
To an isolated feeling newbie, I think it can be very comforting to see that there are other pagans out there who leave offerings to the spirits of the land. I do agree that these should be chosen with care. Flowers are quite often a good idea but even those can be problematic as some are poisinous to animals. food items may encourage vermin that at springs in particular could contaminate the water. I think nightlights are OK to use in ritual but should always be removed afterwards. Care should be taken not to spill wax over the stones and grass. Paper and card offerings, while garish are at least biodegradable. I do think it is OK to remove offerings that are out of date so to speak. Perhaps the best offering I can think of is a small carved wooden votive figure. That at least should be fairly innocuous.
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 8, 2005 8:51:43 GMT -1
It annoys me too. I'm sure someone once said something wise like 'one man's offering is anothers litter' - and that's about right.
Thing is, it's not just pagans who visit and enjoy sacred sites. I feel it gives us a bad name if we are just seen as litter-louts by the rest of the population. Taking a bag and clearing up can be an offering in itself!
The other thing is that some of these offerings can cause damage to a place. Hot wax dripped on stones causes damage to the stones and to the lichens that grow upon them. I've also been to sites and seen coins jammed into cracks in stones. Of course, this is going to do no good at all. And then once up at Arbor Low, someone had been up with a bag of flour and salt, and had done some designs on the banks. It took weeks for them to fade away, and I remember talking to some very worried walkers who thought it was some kind of 'black magic'.
Best thing to do is ask the spirits of a place what they actually want! I find that libations are a good offering - popular with the wights and they leave no trace.
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Post by tenar on Dec 8, 2005 9:06:50 GMT -1
I remember seeing little flower bunch offerings in the woods a while back, and thinking, hey! I'm not the only weird person! ;D. It can be sort of comforting to see these things dotted around. I agree too much rubbish left behind gives a very bad impression of pagans in general to the public. I can only imagine what a passing tourist would have thought of the underwear hanging from a tree
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Post by jez on Dec 8, 2005 20:35:20 GMT -1
hiya Tenar, <snip> .. i see no real harm in tying bits of cotton or wool to a tree - they are natural fibres and will rot, it also continues a loooong tradtion in this country. <snip> the best thing to do is to gather up all synthetics - maybe leave cotton or wool of biodegradeables and take them away with you. perhaps leave your own small offering. i think its a good way of showing the spirits of place you care - an occassional tidy up is a good idea. in fact id recommend that anybody visiting a sacred site should take a plastic bag to gather any rubbish to take away. its nice to leave some small offering, but it should be done thoughtfully. <snip> Lots of sensible stuff here... On the issue of leaving any of the offerings - I tend to leave any that are harmless /out of sight/ where they will still please the spirits of place - and they will tell you in no uncertain terms if you are removing something they like - but not encourage other offerings - with the 'clootie' idea, the tree can be damaged beyond recovery by synthetics, and it is highly unlikely in this day and age that any ribbon or thread, fabric strip or band will be of an entirely natural fibre. It all has polyethylene derivatives et al within it. So take it all off the tree, using a knife if possible to minimise the extra damage to the bark. If you want to leave anything, make sure it is invisible - spring water, a single small flower brought from your garden (not an exotic), a pebble as a gift from one site to another or a poem or song... Don't get me started on the blast mining issue - but don't use exotic crystals - we all live in places where a water-washed stone can be found with relative ease. Jez
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Post by jez on Dec 8, 2005 20:40:53 GMT -1
I didn't remove any of it-I found myself a bit torn between wanting to throw all the candles and plastic away and feeling rude to disturb other peoples offerings I like the voluntary caretaker idea though. I did notice that there were no such problems just up the hill at the longbarrow, which itself had a sign on a post next to it, explaining how leaving non-biodegradable and potentialy poisonous things would disturb both the 'land spirits' and the environment, and also warns against climbing on the sarsens, so it seems the problem has been noted up there at least The NT clean West Kennet, frequently twice and three times a day... So does everyone else who loves it. Jez
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Post by tenar on Dec 9, 2005 6:30:05 GMT -1
I figured somebody was at it, though I didn't realise it was the NT themselves
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Post by siaron on Dec 10, 2005 16:15:35 GMT -1
Hi Tenar- I know the exact spot you are talking about as my husband and I have left prayer ties on an oak tree near that stream. We always use cotton, very small amounts, and say a prayer whenever we leave this kind of offering. I have seen all kinds of things inside of chambers, including coins, candles, flowers, feathers and stones. I'm definitely of a mind to support the volunteer caretaker idea.
I get much more disturbed when I see a site changed in some way - we came across the remains of a small fire with metal and other debris right in the middle of the Merry Maidens circle down in Cornwall - and it looked like crude cross had been carved in the ground in the middle. We didn't know what to make of it, but cleared the debris and tried to put it right as best we could. We were quite upset that people would do something so thoughtless!
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Post by tenar on Dec 11, 2005 6:48:42 GMT -1
It's a nice little spot, isn't it? There are certainly more disturbing things than just rubbish, yes. In the Avebury museum they had up a photo of when some of the stones were graffitied Perhaps some people just have too much time on their hands?
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Post by tenar on Dec 11, 2005 7:00:10 GMT -1
Jez, The blast mining thing gets my blood pressure up as well. In my local market there are all sorts of exotic crystals being advertised as "full of light and healing energies". I wonder how much 'healing energy' is left in these things after it's been exploded out and processed?
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 11, 2005 11:17:32 GMT -1
Good to see you back, Siaron Indeed. Such bitter irony... blast mined crystals healing the earth ;( I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but there seemed to be an upsurge in damage like this after the Blair Witch film came out. I suspect that it encouraged 'dabblers'. Nevertheless, I'm also sure that most of the damage is coming from ignorant people within the pagan community. Well meaning, no doubt. It's up to us to educate people as best we can - and perhaps our duty to clear it up where we find it.
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Post by jez on Dec 11, 2005 15:06:11 GMT -1
New Age Shops.
Now pagans are meant to be close to the land Tread lightly on earth and give nature a hand. But we’re none of us perfect and some are much worse So I thought I’d put some of my gripes into verse.
In the past a magician would rather be dead Than run out of mouse bones or dried adder’s head The dust of a mummy, a toadstone or two Were essential for making a real witches’ brew.
Now a real hand of glory is going too far, And so’s a bald monkey preserved in a jar, But take a good look around most New Age shops And consider the planet when buying these props.
The crystals they sell are the earth’s very bones As sacred as any of Avebury’s stones They’re taken from lands which we comfortably say Are none of our business – they’re too far away.
But blast-mining methods should make us all frown When we pick up such crystals let’s put them straight down. The best witches’ stones are the ones we can reach When we walk through the land or we visit the beach.
Those nice hardwood boxes have come from a place Where teak and mahogany once filled the space. If that bag is from China, consider the wage Of the underpaid woman who stitched the word ‘sage’.
Now no-one is perfect, I’ve said this before We’ve all bought this things, but we needn’t buy more Let’s tell them we want more sustainable stuff Not trinkets, not tat and not more New Age fluff.
©Jezreell 2004
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Post by viridis on Dec 11, 2005 16:05:28 GMT -1
;D Love it!
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Post by tenar on Dec 11, 2005 16:53:07 GMT -1
Thats wonderfull ;D
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Post by jez on Dec 12, 2005 18:05:38 GMT -1
I aim to please. Maybe BBird can think of a way to post tunes... She knows at least one tune it fits Jez
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Post by Blackbird on Dec 13, 2005 7:48:38 GMT -1
I could post tunes onto the main website - by writing the tune out, scanning it and uploading it. I'll see if I have time - it's the writing out that takes forever - takes three times as long to write music on the computer programme as it does to scribble by hand
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