unravelling Math ap Mathonwy

[Lee]

ok, well Gruffydd's Math vab Mathonowy has been read over and i will admit it is a little confusing. if i have gotten the gist correctly Gruffydd has interpreted it as a little garbled and corrupted by other folkloric tales so that we have the version in the mabinogion today.

to sumarise his points - the main theme is the tale of the King/Ruler with the prophesised death (to be killed by his grandson), Math doesnt have any children, yet beli mawr does (what with him being father to gwydion, aranrhot etc)

so the liely original ruler is Beli, who got his virgin daughter Aranrhot to be his foot maiden so he could be sure of her virginity (the taboo on him needing one is flaky at best - after all , he didnt die when goewin was raped or aranrhot gave birth - hence it is regarded as diltuted in the mabinogi we have)

Gwydion wants her and enlists Math to help out. Dylan is born and is cast inot the sea as a means of killing him - ie. no grandson, he becomes a seal and as was traditional he was probably born with a caul making him immune to drowning etc hence seal goddom. the little bit gwydion picked up was the caul which he secreted away and became lleu (this sort of thing happened a fair bit in various mythologies - including irish)

the taboos on lleu are broken - math helps make a wife for Lleu but she betrays him and is punished. gruffydd also concludes that Blodeuwedd wasnt originally turned into an owl - that was a later corruption and confusion of her name with that of the owl.

im going to photocopy the whoel text in the new year and am happy to become a mini lending library if people would like to borrow the text and copy it for themselves.

lee

[Blackbird]

These are interesting theories, and I think they can offer a great deal of insight into these tales and the characters within them.

I do agree that some of the tale seems garbled, and that the characters seem to have lost their original status, and some events appear nonsensical, half remembered. However, all we have is the stories as they stand - and I think we have to trust to them. We can speculate all we like about which relationships or characters may have been different - but I can't see that we can ever prove these theories, outside of our own satisfaction.

I see Math as a peer to Gwydion, rather than a father figure. It's a bit like the Arthur/Merlin relationship, Math as the heroic but aging king, Gwydion as the master magician. (Though of course, both men are well versed in the crafting of magic)

What puzzles me is Mathonwy. Who was she? Does anyone know what her name literally means? And what may the relationship between Mathonwy and Don have been?

The Dylan and Lleu thing is interesting. It may be as Gruffydd thinks. Or there may be some twins symbolism going on. Dylan becomes a creature of the sea, Lleu becomes a creature of the air - in his transformation into the eagle.
Actually, I'm not convinced by Gruffydd there - as in the triads, we learn that Dylan was killed by his uncle Govannon (One of the unfortunate hatchet blows, if I recall correctly?) , presumably in a later incident. The implication is that he was killed accidentally while in seal form.

The Blodeuwedd thing is interesting. It may be later. But there are other traces of seasonal goddesses like herself, so there is no reason why the owl connection may not have been original. After all a flower maiden cannot last all year, the blooms wither so quickly...

Re. the footholder - this is an odd thing, I agree. Footholders did actually exist, but were always (as far as I know) male children. That Math needs a female virgin is perhaps a storytellers device, telling us that this is not the world as we know it, but a strange place where anything could happen No, Math didn't die when Goewin was raped - but that was because of the proviso that the geis didn't apply in times of war - war that was created by the meddling of Gwydion and Gilfaethwy as the initial diversion that allowed the rape of Goewin.

[Brochfael]

I was under the impression that Gwydion and Gilfaethwy were sons of Math's sister Don, so presumably Mathonwy is the named parent of Don and Math.

This would place Mathonwy as a distant ancestor or elder god(dess) figure like to Manogan who was parent to Beli Mawr.

[Blackbird]

I'd hazard a guess at goddess, given that the *on appears in her name. Any idea what the rest of her name means?

Yes, I've just checked in my Mabinogion (Jones and Jones) and Gwydion and Gilfaethwy are indeed 'his sister's sons'.

[velnita]

Do we know that Mathonwy was female? How?

I would love to read this. It's my favorite story in the Mabinogion. I'm a little confused about Beli Mawr being the origional ruler. Any ideas why Math replaced him?

Velnita