Ronald Hutton 'Druids' Book

[Blackbird]

Interview about his new book here - looks interesting

Hutton's most recent work, The Druids, a compact and lively account of what historians and other seekers of the past have made of these "appallingly insubstantial figures", could arguably be looked at as a history of the Druids in which no "real" Druid appears. The Druids left no writings, no images and no tombs. Accounts of them, from Tacitus down, are frustratingly inconclusive, and drift from anecdotal, to biased, to forged, to sheer invention. Most of us associate them with mistletoe, megaliths and human sacrifice, and the three turn up often enough; but the fact is that the Druids, at one time or another, have appeared as all things to all men.

Hutton gives us chapters on "The Patriotic Druids", "The Wise Druids", "The Green Druids", "The Demonic Druids", "The Fraternal Druids", "The Rebel Druids" and, perhaps most important to his popular readers, "The Future Druids". Like the Knights Templar, at least in the British Isles, the Druids have been a handy peg on which to hang a backpack of imaginative, insightful, and sometimes half-baked ideas, dealing with national identity, religious revelation, ancient societies, nature and ourselves. When I mentioned that it seemed like a history of what people have thought about the Druids, Hutton eagerly agreed.

[littleraven]

I have to admit I'm one of the seemingly rare people who isn't really a fan of Hutton. I havn't been inclined to buy it yet (I'll wait fot it cheap on ebay), as I suspect the theme will revolve around 'modern Druids are all invention, but that's okay and they are nice enough people'.

[Brochfael]

I'll lend you my copy if you like. I haven't had time to read it properly yet but I tend to like his writing style and find he usually makes a lot of sense. Added to which I'm inclined to like him on a personal level.

[Francis]

I've haven't yet read the book carefully yet but I point out the following passage (p197);

"By the end of the 1990s, Restall Orr was the most famous Druidess in the world; certainly the first since antiquity to occupy such an influential position and perhaps the first of all time. In the first years of the new century, she left th BDO to establish an organisation unequivocally under, or responsive to, her own guidance, the Druid Network." My italics.

I note that despite there being a thread looking at this book on TDN's forum- no voice has mentioned this passage and thus I conclude that it meets with widespread (head above the parapet) agreement with the TDN membership. I apologies if it sounds like I'm being anti-TDN. That's not my aim - I'm currently still a member, and as I've said before Bobcat has been an important influence on much of my thinking.

I have to admit being mindful of just how much influence Bobcat does have on a large part of the 'Druid' community - and concerned (not sure if that's the right word?) that her take on things does have the potential to become dogma. I wonder what the impact of her forthcoming book on Druid Ethics will be in the long run?

Stephen

[littleraven]

Her take on things *has* become dogma, it's just that people refuse to believe it. In much the same way as OBOD has its dogma, so does TDN (which is BCs vehicle, however you look at it).

[Midori]

I find Hutton's writing style dry, I much prefer listening to him. I have his tapes of Mabinogion and find them easy to listen to.

Cheers, Midori

[Craig]

Hutton is a man of contrasts. One one hand he undoubtably has some depth of scholarship. On the other he seems to enjoy his slightly rebellious reputation a bit overmuch.

As a speaker I found him to be smugger than a Tory in a safe seat, as pleased with himself as a cat alone with the cream jug, and overly keen for others to recognise his 'superior' arguments. In short I don't trust him, he appear to my other perceptions as a Weasel dressed up as an Owl.

As for TDN. Well there are those who look on it as Bobcat's personal fan club, but knowing the quality of many of the people there I'd say she'd have a very hard time trying to use it as such. I have let my membership lapse some time ago as I tired of the unchallenging and circular nature of the debate.

I have read Stations of the Sun and Triumph of the Moon, and as a result have absolutely no intention of wading through his take on druidry past and future. I'm sure that there is somethging far more useful for me to do with my time.

[littleraven]

francis said:

jez said:

Ah, but what is a druid?

And is it the same as what /was/ a druid?

Well apparently according to the leading expert in the land on druids both contemporary and ancient, Ronald Hutton - one difference is that in the past Druids used to have as much influence on the world as Bobcat does today, although perhaps actually not quite as much influence as Bobcat does today.

Ronald Hutton the leading expert? Or is it simply that so many people involved in neo-paganism like him because of his seemingly unswerving dedication on proving that there is no provable link to the ancient as to make it irrelevant? As for leading expert on Druids, there are other people who have a much more substantial track record in the field, like Miranda green, who seem able to reconcile the religious and historical aspects of Druids. Hutton’s specialism is, and still is AFAIK, the civil war period.

As for Bobcat’s influence, you really believe she has anywhere near the influence that the ancient Druids had? Neo-Druidry has practically zero influence on the world today, beyond such essentially trivial things as getting people in to Stonehenge early in the morning. What about Phillip Carr-Gomm? What he has done with OBOD is considerably larger and more cohesive than TDN.

francis said:

"By the end of the 1990s, Restall Orr was the most famous Druidess in the world; certainly the first since antiquity to occupy such an influential position and perhaps the first of all time. " (p197 of his latest book - again my italics)

Sorry I just can't let this quote lie. Ronald Hutton does, for all his deserving-custard-pie-wearing smugness, have my respect. He's raised the bar for vigour in researching the origins of wicca and other paths- and authors will have less expectation that they can get away with writing pure fantasy as 'history' nowadays- so fair play to him for that.

In the later Roman empire there was a named Druidess (I will need to look up her name) who was a prophetess to a centurion, who later became the emperor. I haven’t read this book, but does Hutton not count this character?

Unfortunately, the problem is that Hutton writes as an academic and as such he demands empirical, verifiable data to substantiate his research. An extremely ironic attitude in the realm of the spiritual. Hutton was not the first to bring out the origins of Wicca, he just happened to be the first to publish it with a ‘Prof’ prefix as such he gets noticed. I wonder how he considers the significance of Divitiacus, Druid of the Aedui brother of the king and advisor to Julius Caesar. Does that not count as rather influential?

francis said:

I don't think he's the sort of person to carelessly put a throw away remark into print. So he must believe the above.

Do we conclude then that Pof. Hutton believes Druids in the past had relatively little influence on the population (battles, treatise, morale, fertility, decisions etc.) or that Bobcats influence may really be potentially unprecedented for a 'druid' ?

Stephen

I really don’t perceive how either of the following have any basis in the evidence he is so fond of. Saying this is in contradiction to practically every piece of evidence on the Druids we do have.


EDIT: The emperor was Diocletian, although I can't find the Drudiess' name atm.

[Francis]

Hi LR

Sorry I've phrased all that really badly. I should have used some smileys or something. I'm sending Hutton up on this point .

Whilst I normally regard his writing as very worthwhile. I'm just left flabergasted by this statement of his about Bobcat. Essentially that he feels she may be the most influential Druid of all time. I'm even more bewildered that people don't seem to find it worthy of comment. When I first read it I thought it would cause a storm! I mentioned it to absolute silence on TDN - in fact on one of my last visits there I couldn't find the albeit empty thread!

I would have thought his statment to be such dramatic nonsense that one normally as rigorous as he is would have jumped on it had anyone else written it. Or can I conclude someone has the power to enthrall? If so I wish they'd visit G. W. Bush

This isn't me having a go at Bobcat btw

Stephen

[arth_frown]

I read half the book so far, I find it strange that Hutton is a member of OBOD and has finished all 3 grades but debunks the druidry of which is in the gwers.

[suelittleowl]

Ronald Hutton is the Priest (High Priest?) of a Wiccan coven so he seems to be hedging his bets on all sides.

He pops up on TV talking about all kinds of historical subjects - from paganism to Charles I and II which I believe is one of his specialist subjects. He reminds me very much of Pete Marwick, the OU English tutor (may he RIP) - must be the cravats.

I bought his Arthur book after hearing him speak about Tolkien at a Pagan Federation conference but was disapointed that the gist of the talk was not replicated in the book - at the talk he spoke about how the orginal drafts of LOTR could not be published with their original overt paganism but this is not discussed in the essay.

In the Arthur book I felt that his objectivity was subverted by his pagan beliefs - although the essay on Myths was, in parts, a bit like finding out that Santa didn't exist, in other essays he made interesting arguments only to say that perhaps that was all nonsense and perhaps fairies really do exist (this is a vast over exageration apologies) which I found annoying. Which probably says more about me than him!

He gushes about Bobcat in the Druid essay too, he is obviously besotted. I won't be buying the Druid book, I'm not intersted in what Iolo Morganwg, Isaac Bonewits, Ross Nichols, Philip C-G, the chap with the pointy beard who used to turn up to rituals at Avebury and challenge the guardian before she was allowed to sit down, Philip Shallcross and Emma Restall Orr did. Someone commented somewhere that the only reason people will buy this book is to see if they get a mention - or in a pic or if someone they know (or recognise) is in a pic.

[littleraven]

francis said:

Hi LR

Sorry I've phrased all that really badly. I should have used some smileys or something. I'm sending Hutton up on this point .

Whilst I normally regard his writing as very worthwhile. I'm just left flabergasted by this statement of his about Bobcat. Essentially that he feels she may be the most influential Druid of all time. I'm even more bewildered that people don't seem to find it worthy of comment. When I first read it I thought it would cause a storm! I mentioned it to absolute silence on TDN - in fact on one of my last visits there I couldn't find the albeit empty thread!

I would have thought his statment to be such dramatic nonsense that one normally as rigorous as he is would have jumped on it had anyone else written it. Or can I conclude someone has the power to enthrall? If so I wish they'd visit G. W. Bush

This isn't me having a go at Bobcat btw

Stephen

FFS, hear that? That's me breathing a sigh of relief that is. I thought you'd lost it in haze of heat induced tree sap fumes ;D Or dodgy squirrel. Either that I have completely lost my sense of humour, which would be difficult as I don't have much of one to begin with.

As a researcher, as a historian, yes you can't really fault the quality of his stuff. His level of detail is often astounding. It's just his conclusions I can't deal generally agree with, they seem to be too often serving a personal agenda IMHO.

Do you think the silence is nervous embarrassment?

I don't think anyone is here to have a go at Bobcat tbh, she does what she does very well and you can't knock her for that. You can stand agape at the people who treat her as a guru though.

I think Hutton does indeed have the power to enthrall. That someone who has the credentials that Prof. Hutton does, and is also a pagan is an instant flame to the moths of the neo-pagan world.

[littleraven]

arthfrown said:

I read half the book so far, I find it strange that Hutton is a member of OBOD and has finished all 3 grades but debunks the druidry of which is in the gwers.

Intriguing. I seem to remember not so very long ago wasn't he big pals with PCG?

[littleraven]

suelittleowl said:

- at the talk he spoke about how the orginal drafts of LOTR could not be published with their original overt paganism but this is not discussed in the essay.

Really? Tolkien was a devout Catholic, I wonder if the pagansim was intended or simply seen by those who wanted to see it?

suelittleowl said:

He gushes about Bobcat in the Druid essay too, he is obviously besotted. I won't be buying the Druid book, I'm not intersted in what Iolo Morganwg, Isaac Bonewits, Ross Nichols, Philip C-G, the chap with the pointy beard who used to turn up to rituals at Avebury and challenge the guardian before she was allowed to sit down, Philip Shallcross and Emma Restall Orr did. Someone commented somewhere that the only reason people will buy this book is to see if they get a mention - or in a pic or if someone they know (or recognise) is in a pic.

I can well believe that. In fact the only BC book I own is the one I get mentioned in!

I'm thinking I should buy this and read it before the camp, because considering the nature of my talk I am sure that some people willl come armed with this.

[Craig]

littleraven said:

As a researcher, as a historian, yes you can't really fault the quality of his stuff. His level of detail is often astounding. It's just his conclusions I can't deal generally agree with, they seem to be too often serving a personal agenda IMHO.

It's his delivery I can't stand. I've only seen him give one of his talks twice and I don't intend to indulge him a third, after all there are clouds and butterfiles to watch. Add to that the fact that he really cannot decide which camp he is in - the spiritual or the secular, he attacks each with a certain smug glee.

littleraven said:

I don't think anyone is here to have a go at Bobcat tbh, she does what she does very well and you can't knock her for that. You can stand agape at the people who treat her as a guru though.

Emma has ever been kind and respectful to me so I have no qualms in saying I like her personally. I don't always agree with what she says, and I certainly don't sit there waiting for great truths to come tripping from her mouth. Awe inspiring she isn't, which is probably why I find sitting amongst her acolytes so uncomfortable. They glare at me when I chuckle at the wrong bits.

littleraven said:

I think Hutton does indeed have the power to enthrall. That someone who has the credentials that Prof. Hutton does, and is also a pagan is an instant flame to the moths of the neo-pagan world.

"Ooh look mum I've got this clever git 'ere who says I'm not completely nuts, see? Yes the smug git who dresses like a 19th century poet, yes he does think he is Percy Blysse Shelley. Hmm... perhaps I could find a better role model... hey there's Bobcat! Yoohoo! Emma!"

[Deleted]

craig said:

Ooh look mum I've got this clever git 'ere who says I'm not completely nuts, see? Yes the smug git who dresses like a 19th century poet, yes he does think he is Percy Blysse Shelley. Hmm... perhaps I could find a better role model... hey there's Bobcat! Yoohoo! Emma!"

I nearly spat coffee all over my laptop reading that ;D

I've not read much of Hutton's stuff, so I can't really comment but I agree as far as the guru mentality directed towards BC is concerned.
The last time I got in a debate with someone at the druid camp the basis of their argument was basically "Emma says ..."
Out of curiosity I asked her opinion on the subject (use of plant based hallucinogens to get past mental blocks) and it wasn't what I'd been told it was, so I wonder how much of what's passed around as her dogma is really even her own opinion.

[Francis]

littleraven said:

FFS, hear that? That's me breathing a sigh of relief that is. I thought you'd lost it in haze of heat induced tree sap fumes ;D

Double distilled birch sap wine moonshine- it might just work!

littleraven said:

Do you think the silence is nervous embarrassment?

I'd like to think so but I guess I'd be just kidding myself. I think many TDN members wouldn't feel any suprise at all reading Hutton's statement- they may even feel it's self-evidently true. In my oppinion (and I don't claim this as anything more than that!) seeing how many TDN members behave, then TDN is a bit of a personality cult. And Firinne's point just adds to my belief in this.

It could be argued that someone as obviously intelligent and empathic as Bobcat knows this, and could or even should do something about it. But I guess she never said they were her 'flock', why should she feel reposnsible for them being so dozey?

But what could she do even if she wanted to change this? If she says anything then everyone would claim that it wasn't the case, or didn't apply to them or that it was just arrogance of her to claim anyone did. She might be in a bit of a no-win situation - and so silence might be the best policy in the hope that as new-commers mature into their path in time they move on from the Bobcat-rapture a bit.

Stephen

[Francis]

craig said:

Ooh look mum I've got this clever git 'ere who says I'm not completely nuts, see?

I think you've hit the nail bang on its head with that Craig. Modern druidry does seem strangely desperate for recognition of its legitimacy from the 'establishment'. And a Professor form a real university must be just the job.

Druids aren't really persecuted in Britain - the general public mostly just thinks them foolish. There is a reason why these days if someone declares they're Buddist or Taoist then people are often interested and maybe even see it as vaguely evidence of their intelligence of some othe positive characteristic. But the response to druidry or anything similar is usually one of amusement.

So what does druidry do in response? Have a look at the bananas mish mash of contradictions and incompatible beliefs, lifted from here there and everywhere and wake up to themselves...

No far easier to hang a 'Real Professor' around their necks as talismanic proof they're not "nuts to mum".

I'm ranting like a fool this I wouldn't believe this matters to me - but as I seem to be going on about I guess it must...Maybe I'm just finding stuff to post about to get to 100 and be Carw?

craig said:

Yes the smug git who dresses like a 19th century poet, yes he does think he is Percy Blysse Shelley.

He is the king of Smug and affectation - Its called a radio not a wireless you nutter

[Craig]

francis said:

He is the king of Smug and affectation - Its called a radio not a wireless you nutter

And what is wrong pray with calling one's receiver a 'wireless'? I do and I'm not all that old. There again I still call a TV a 'Television' and listen to The Archers...

Personally I think Jenny should ditch Brian Aldridge and screw him for every penny he's got. I'm sure Adam and Debbie would back him. Alice has the right idea for once... hasn't it gone quiet in here?