Caesar’s Well

[arth_frown]

Caesar’s Well

R.C. Hope's "Legendary Lore" recounts a legend that Caesar’s legions, marching towards London and thirsty, were shown this well by a raven. It is said to possess healing properties and is the source of the River Ravensbourne, but in Mr hope’s book there are a few accounts Caesar finding springs by animals.
Whether the legend is true is open to debate’ but bear in mind that a huge hill fort called Holwood camp or Caesar’s camp with the circumference of 2 miles and is 43 acres is only a few meters from the spring.
The well isn’t actually a well a but a spring and is the source of the river Ravensbourne.
On the opposite side of the valley there is a roman villa and a mausoleum arguably the chief of the tribe became Romanised and built his villa near the hill fort.
Having been to the spring I have found what looks like a tile from a mosaic floor in the spring.

'The Archaeology of the Bromley Area' (Kent Archaeological Rescue Unit – 1985) reports that "…by about 200 BC a very large and powerful tribe dominated the area with a territory probably reaching to the River Thames. Unfortunately, its name and its chieftains are not known! Such were its resources in terms of manpower and organization that it was able to construct a massive hillfort at Holwood Park, Keston, covering an area of about 43 acres. Here large numbers of tribesmen and women would have been required to construct the massive multiple ramparts and ditches which in places topped 40ft and ran for a mile in circumference. Although much of the fences were thrown down in the 18th Century, it still rates a one of the most spectacular prehistoric sites in Kent. It is protected as a Scheduled Ancient Monuments and lies within private grounds. Minor excavations took place here many years ago, but the interior has never been excavated".

“This publication also has two good diagrams of the site. The surviving defences are univallate (i.e. a one bank and ditch) on the North side, and bivallate (i.e. two banks and ditches) on the West side. The north west section also shows an entrance. The rest of the defences have been flattened. “

[arth_frown]

Here's a link to the map of keston the spring is between the car park and the first pond.

www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=541500&Y=164500&A=Y&Z=3

[littleraven]

The thing about Caesar marching towards London is, at this time London wasn't supposed to exist! Unless you consider that other 'unpublished sources' have London as one of the most important ports in Europe at this time.

As for Ravens finding the spring, not impossible. It's entirely plausibe that a cavalry scout group had a Raven standard, and they found it.

If anyone mentions the Morrigan I *will* bludgeon them to death.

[Deleted]

littleraven said:

If anyone mentions the Morrigan I *will* bludgeon them to death.

Why? After all we all know ravens are only attributable to her presence

*grins mischieviously and hopes one'll turn up for her impending journey to the Otherworld*

[jez]

firinne said:

littleraven said:

If anyone mentions the Morrigan I *will* bludgeon them to death.

Why? After all we all know ravens are only attributable to her presence

*grins mischieviously and hopes one'll turn up for her impending journey to the Otherworld*

Why pick on Maureen? Woden has raven guides, and is also interested in armies...

Anyway, I thought Maureen was into Crows, not Ravens...

--

Jez - carefully avoiding any large black birds and feeding her magpies happily...

[Deleted]

jez said:

Why pick on Maureen? Woden has raven guides, and is also interested in armies...

As does Bran the Blessed, but mentioning the Morrigan gave me a little chuckle knowing that although LR would know there's no way on this earth I was being serious, for a second there the expression on his face would be worth a round trip to the Otherworld, or three.

Anyway, I thought Maureen was into Crows, not Ravens...

I've always seen the link as being to carrion birds of any kind, because they can be seen anywhere there's dead animals to be nibbled and they perform the same function in the cycle of life and death.

Maureen. Argh. I can't get the image of herself as my old and somewhat dim-witted aunt out of my head.

[Craig]

Morrigan

C'mon then if you think yer 'ard enuff?

[arth_frown]

Carrion birds have been found as offering in wells and springs around the south east England whether this has anything to do with the raven legend may only be coincidental.
Do you think that the local tribe that was only a few metres away would let Caesar and his legion have a drink out of there most likely sacred spring without a fight?

[littleraven]

arthfrown said:

Carrion birds have been found as offering in wells and springs around the south east England whether this has anything to do with the raven legend may only be coincidental.
Do you think that the local tribe that was only a few metres away would let Caesar and his legion have a drink out of there most likely sacred spring without a fight?

Well, it's entirely possible that they did. Quite a few tribes openly welcomed Rome.

[Tegernacus]

yeah, they did. Caesar even called the Cantiaci tribe (around Canterbury) "civilised". The Trinovantes (Essex) sent people to Caesar, asking him for help with their fight against the Catuvellauni (St Albans), so they would have accomodated (grudgingly) the legion too

[jez]

craig said:

Morrigan

C'mon then if you think yer 'ard enuff?

But I am right, aren't I?

Maureen is the modern form of Her name It's even still pronounced very very similarly

--

And yes, I /have/ had minor dealings with Her, through another person.

But then, I have had rather more major dealings with Hella, and she's at least as scary /and/ is one of my own polytheon

--

Jez

[arth_frown]

I can see why the local tribe would be pro roman they must of heard of the roman war machine. It most likely pay off for the local chieftain as the Romans built him a nice villa near the fort.

Does anyone know where I can go to find out more information about the spring? It seems I'm the only one that has put all the pieces of information into one place.

[littleraven]

Quick question to clarify - which Caesar?

[arth_frown]

littleraven said:

Quick question to clarify - which Caesar?

Good point, I can't find any info on which Caesar it was. I will be going there next week and will try and find out which one it is.

[Tegernacus]

is this the same site?

quote:

"The whole of the Wool Road conservation area is located within the Wimbledon
Common Archaeological Priority Zone. Immediately to the south is part of the Wimbledon
Village Archaeological Priority Zone which extends along the south side of the Ridgway
and Copse Hill. There are no known archaeological features or recorded finds within the
conservation area. However, Caesar’s Camp, formerly known as The Rounds or Bemsbury,
a Sheduled Ancient Monument is located approximately 500 metres to the north-west
of the conservation area. This is believed to date back to the sixth century BC (bronze-
iron age) and may have served as a defence for the old State of London against the
peoples of Wessex in the south west. There is however no known connection with the
Roman Empire.

Caesar’s Well, like the camp, is probably not of Roman origin but is known to have been
used since very early times. During the eighteenth century it was known as Robin
Hood’s Well. Its waters were thought to have medicinal properties"

source: www.merton.gov.uk/wool_rd_ca_appraisal_1.pdf

about its rebuilding: people.bath.ac.uk/liskmj/living-spring/sourcearchive/fs9/fs9jlh1.htm

photo of it halfway down this page: www.urban75.org/walks/hayes.html


from the smell of things, its a folklore name. People in the middle ages saw the well, and the Roman remains nearby, and called it Caesars well.

incidently:

www.vantageland.co.uk/land-for-sale-keston.htm

[arth_frown]

aliguana said:

is this the same site?

quote:

"The whole of the Wool Road conservation area is located within the Wimbledon
Common Archaeological Priority Zone. Immediately to the south is part of the Wimbledon
Village Archaeological Priority Zone which extends along the south side of the Ridgway
and Copse Hill. There are no known archaeological features or recorded finds within the
conservation area. However, Caesar’s Camp, formerly known as The Rounds or Bemsbury,
a Sheduled Ancient Monument is located approximately 500 metres to the north-west
of the conservation area. This is believed to date back to the sixth century BC (bronze-
iron age) and may have served as a defence for the old State of London against the
peoples of Wessex in the south west. There is however no known connection with the
Roman Empire.

Same name different spring the one I'm looking at is in keston Bromley. Remarkably similar legend I wonder if it came from the same source maybe R.C Hope as I can't find any evidence of the legend being earlier than his book.

[Tegernacus]

yeah, sorry. Two Caesars wells, even got me confuddled. Must be a common ancestry.

This is the one in Keston:

"Close by the mill one can find the Keston Ponds; three in all, one natural, the other two being man-made. The spring from which the ponds are fed is known as Caesar's Well and may well be what first attracted the Romans to build a settlement close by in what are now the grounds of Holwood House. "

"Holwood Hill fort, named "Caesar's Camp" by the Victorian historians unable to grasp the astonishing fact that things could actually be older than Roman, is the most interesting of the prehistoric remains to be found in Kent."

"Julius Caesar arrived in Keston in 55BC for two weeks only; the following year he returned with 30,000 men but this time he turned North near Westerham to ford the Thames above Kingston. the arrival of the Romans did not spell the end for the Iron age tribes, all the evidence suggests they were able to co-habit quite peacefully.

About 100 years later another Roman army came. This time Aulns Phantins was in command. He found the Britons a bit much so he sent a messenger for Emperor Claudias and waited at Holwood. (In about 1798 –1800 a stone coffin, coins, a dagger and a spur together with many pieces of pottery were found). A Roman terracotta lamp was unearthed in 1882 by a gardener close to Keston Common. The name Keston was thought to be a corruption of the name Casterton or Chesterton or as the Briton’s would pronounce it Kasterton. "

www.bigginhill.co.uk/keston.htm#Hill%20fort

The Brits who made Holwood Fort were the Cantiaci tribe, the ones Caesar called "practically civilised". Maybe they named the well in Caesars honour? Maybe the Romans named it when they took over. Maybe it is a Mediaeval or Victorian naming. Who knows. The legend says the Romans were camped out in Keston, and needed water. They saw a Raven too-ing and fro-ing from one particular spot, so they dug a hole there, and found water. (Source: Bromley Borough Council lol). Although why they didn't just ask the Cantiaci chief, I have no idea.

One thing that strikes me.. apparently, until the Victorians bored a hole into it and put a pump in it, Caesars well was just a muddy hole. OK, it was probably different during the Iron Age. But if I was going to chuck my best torc into the waters of the goddess, I'd do it at Keston Pond. (Not the later Victorian additions, the natural one).

[arth_frown]

There's no sign of the pump now just some modern paviing and brickwork. The spring does flow fast with no signs of mud, I'm sure if there had been offerings made into the spring we would have known about it, unless they where stolen.

[arth_frown]

littleraven said:

Quick question to clarify - which Caesar?

hi been to the spring yesterday, but the board near it just says Caesar.