Feral Involvement

[redraven]

The recent thread on the subject of Efnisien threw up some points that, unbeknown to me, had some effect on me. In that thread, one of the members revealed a very personal viewpoint gained by feral means, i.e meditation etc. The resultant questioning appeared to me, at least, to make the member defensive to the point that he withdrew from the thread. ( I wish to make it clear that there is no implied criticism by me of anyone who took part in that thread!) This highlighted the difficulties of making statements that would be difficult to substantiate.
In my recent meditation, I have been shown a potential means by which the more feral of us can make some written contribution using our own methods of Revelation.
To the best of my abilities, this is my understanding of what I have been shown.

Firstly, I have been told to create a guided meditation to use as a common starting point for those of us who use this method of communication. I am not going to teach how to meditate or even what style to use, that is up to the individual to find for themselves, as there are some very good books out there and I do not wish to be accused of promoting one style over another, I will merely provide the parameters to use, so to speak.
I have been instructed to insist on a few "safeguards".......

1. Whom soever tries this method, it is advisable that they pick a subject or object they wish to learn about that, initially, is local to themselves, be that a local deity or spirit of a place or even a place itself. For deities, I think we could provide a website link for British deities. If you are overseas, then you may need to provide your own lists at this early stage.

2. Your impressions need to be recorded, probably on paper, as soon as you come out of your meditation so that they are fresh, for as with dreams, leaving it for even a few minutes can result in memory loss.

3. Your results will need to be recorded on a thread on this forum, under the title of that which you have been trying to learn about, for example, the deity of your locality. You should try to record these accurately and avoid, where possible, any personal interpretations and stick to the facts of what you have observed, heard, sensed, etc.

4. If there is a thread already in existence about your subject matter, then you should NOT read this before your own experience has taken place. Write your own post and only then, read what others have written.

5. Any discussions about what has been revealed should be done on new threads so that the meditation notes stay written as the person who experienced them intended.

6. If discussions about the meditations result in disagreement, then it can be agreed that:
a) one party can state that they do not know the answer to the question being asked or
b) there is no current evidence to agree with what is being claimed.
This is done to avoid the ego lead disagreements so prevalent in some neo-pagan forums. It gives both parties a Honorable exit strategy.

The basic idea of this is to provide some feral data recorded in the forum, which can be referred to as developments in the field advance. Today's ramblings could lead to tomorrow's spark of recognition needed to advance our knowledge. It gives the less academic of us a means to contribute, at the same time, advancing our own means of understanding, in a way we can all share.

Everyone starts with the same guided meditation and everyone's results are logged, making it possible to examine the result for common traits, ideas, etc.

This is my understanding of what has been shown to me, if the members decide not to take it up, I would not be insulted, as I have tried to move ego to one side in this and communicate what was shown to me as faithfully as I can.

I would be interested in your opinions, and if you would be happy to try this out or why you could not.

RR

[Lee]

a very bold move.

equally bold a move as those who do this and post.

this is where we start testing out hypotheses so to speak.

a damn good thing to begin doing i feel, putting money where our mouths are as it were.

[Heron]

I have had very good results with guided meditations in the past - but in the context of a small group where interpretations were shared face to face afterwards. Could work here but I think the open nature of such a forum means that people dropping in and out might end up contributing without the right context for what is being done.

[redraven]

heron said:

Could work here but I think the open nature of such a forum means that people dropping in and out might end up contributing without the right context for what is being done.

Hello Heron,
Interesting, however the impression I got was that this could be open to personal interpretation if people wanted to follow that path, but this was not the main intention. The main thrust was that by refraining from personal interpretation in the main thread, this thread could be used at later dates by anyone, therefore, the nature of people coming and going would not necessarily be a problem as the important part would be the recording of the feral experience and it's application at any future date by interested parties.
My understanding was that it was most important to refrain from personal interpretation with the original post experience thread, therefore leaving the evidence as "pure" as possible, if that makes sense.

RR

[bodlon]

There's a term floating around the broader bits of the pagan community I participate in: UPG, or "Unsubstantiated Personal Gnosis." (Not to haul ye olde CR FAQ out twice in one day, but here you go: the bit on UPG.)

Basically, an individual (or sometimes a group) has an experience, or feels moved to do something, or so on, rather than having it taught or finding it in a book, etc. This experience or knowledge might be very useful to the individual/group, or meaningful, and that's great. I'd probably say it's a big part of having a personal spiritual practice.

However, these things are subjective, and there's not really a good metric for telling the difference between someone's imagination and actual divine inspiration. Until you find a way to verify something like this with extant evidence, UPG's really not something that can (or, IMHO, should) carry any dogmatic weight. Two people can have opposite experiences of equal intensity. Who's correct? How do you prove it?

As an individual, I know my primary effort is being made to work away from a position that's primarily UPG into a place that's more structured, rooted in tradition and literature, and so on. Most of what I'm running on is UPG, but it's that same UPG that's telling me to go and learn to do things properly, to revive traditions, and share that knowledge.

[redraven]

bodlon said:

Basically, an individual (or sometimes a group) has an experience, or feels moved to do something, or so on, rather than having it taught or finding it in a book, etc. This experience or knowledge might be very useful to the individual/group, or meaningful, and that's great. I'd probably say it's a big part of having a personal spiritual practice.

However, these things are subjective, and there's not really a good metric for telling the difference between someone's imagination and actual divine inspiration. Until you find a way to verify something like this with extant evidence, UPG's really not something that can (or, IMHO, should) carry any dogmatic weight. Two people can have opposite experiences of equal intensity. Who's correct? How do you prove it?

Hello Bodlon,
Hmmm, I wondered if this would come up. What has been made clear to me is that this is not about UPG, the idea is that the person records what he/she has seen / heard / sensed without any personal interpretation initially. Of course, if the individual wants to go down that path, that is up to them, personally, I would be reluctant to because of your last 2 questions.
The feral could be thought of as channeler of information, the interpretation of that information is left to the individual viewing.
Of course, this is going to be a very difficult thing to attempt, to be able and confident enough to view the normally hidden aspects and to then commit that image to written media without the ego "colouring" things will require a lot of practice. It may be that what I have been shown is too difficult for most, if not all, it is up to the individual to decide if this is a challenge they need or want to do!

RR

[bodlon]

What has been made clear to me is that this is not about UPG, the idea is that the person records what he/she has seen / heard / sensed without any personal interpretation initially.

So recording the sensory input, then?

Lovely, sure. But then what do you do with it?

The feral could be thought of as channeler of information, the interpretation of that information is left to the individual viewing.

I think you're using terms that aren't in my lexicon yet. To me, this sounds like oracular practice.

So who's doing the viewing?

If I sound a bit critical, it's because I think it's important to look at these things with a serious eye. It pays to be cautious of things you can't quantify. Faith is one thing, but if I'm crossing a river, I want to know what I'm stepping on.

[redraven]

bodlon said:

If I sound a bit critical, it's because I think it's important to look at these things with a serious eye. It pays to be cautious of things you can't quantify. Faith is one thing, but if I'm crossing a river, I want to know what I'm stepping on.

Knew I was going out on a limb with this. You are entitled to be critical, however, I would ask if we are to look at these things, do we look from one perspective, that is the academic perspective and deny the existence of any other?
It may be that what I see and record sounds like utter rubbish today, however, is that sound basis for total rejection and adoption of a one eyed approach? Today's heresy can be tomorrow's scientific fact. I am not asking for belief from anyone, merely the structure to record what I and others may experience. If my ramblings produce just one piece of information that can be used with certainty to advance our understanding of that which we seek, then I would say that this qualifies the whole exercise.

RR

[bodlon]

Knew I was going out on a limb with this.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a good limb.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing against trying this stuff. I'd be a very funny sort of pagan if I wasn't willing to believe the world was an interesting place.

What I am saying, though, is that a person shouldn't abandon hir good sense just because something feels important. Have the experience, but be up-front about what it really is, and take the time to examine it thoroughly.

You are entitled to be critical, however, I would ask if we are to look at these things, do we look from one perspective, that is the academic perspective and deny the existence of any other?

Depends on what we're doing. If we're inquiring into the historical origins of a text, or the basis of a practice I'm going to trust a scholar. If we need spiritual advice, though, I'll seek a mystic. Both of these are useful views, but more importantly, they're useful in different areas and in different ways.

Today's heresy can be tomorrow's scientific fact.

Maybe so, but I'm not trusting glossolalia on my linguistics exams.

If my ramblings produce just one piece of information that can be used with certainty to advance our understanding of that which we seek, then I would say that this qualifies the whole exercise.

I tentatively agree, but how will we know that one piece of information without a critical eye?

[Blackbird]

We do it thusly - your UPG can become SPG (Substantiated Personal Gnosis)

How? There are two ways. Firstly, by marrying the experiential with research. Although I keep saying that the two approaches have equal weight, one shouldn't really exist without the other in personal practice. Without the experiential, research is just dry academia. But without research, the experiential can become confusing and perhaps misleading.

The second way is by sharing UPG, which is an excellent suggestion and something good to do here. You have to be careful when asking the questions though - it's important not be leading. For example, if I have a vision of my Grey Lady in a different form to usual, I could simply ask others about the guises they have seen her in. Hopefully, I'll find that my vision is substantiated by the experiences of others.

If it is, great! We can call it SPG and perhaps come to new understanding. If not - that doesn't mean I'll abandon that vision as false, though I would bear that in mind as a possibility. I would keep it in mind, waiting for a time when other information might tell me more.

I agree, it's really important to write down (or tape) your experiences as quickly as possible. Record every single little detail - the time of day, the season, where the light is coming from, scents, sounds... you don't always realise at the time what is important.

[redraven]

Would anyone here object if I tried this and posted the results? I don't think my techniques are good enough yet so think this could be a couple of months off before I get something like what I'm looking for but summer would be a good time for me with a reduction of workload and less distractions and you never know, I might take to it quickly.
When I have posted the results, would the members here be kind enough to point out to me if I seem to be hurtling towards option 4 as mentioned in the Tough Questions thread? ;D

RR

[littleraven]

I certainly wouldn't object, it's a very solid attempt to get things going in the parallel to the academic..

Good luck.

[Blackbird]

Yep, I'd support that wholeheartedly

[Midori]

Not being much of a meditator these days, I find things come to me and just 'slot into place'. Realising that solar eclipses occur at New Moon and Lunar ones at Full moon, for instance. I find logic gives me a lot of what I base My 'Feralism' on. I do watch and make sure my findings work before spouting them, Just in case I'm talking out of the wrong end!

So, I guess I'm applying my own 'science' to my findings. I think of them as SPG, but others may not agree.

Cheers, Midori

[redraven]

midori said:

Not being much of a meditator these days, I find things come to me and just 'slot into place'. Realising that solar eclipses occur at New Moon and Lunar ones at Full moon, for instance. I find logic gives me a lot of what I base My 'Feralism' on. I do watch and make sure my findings work before spouting them, Just in case I'm talking out of the wrong end!

So, I guess I'm applying my own 'science' to my findings. I think of them as SPG, but others may not agree.

Cheers, Midori

I think it was Sandra Ingerman who when asked about the nagging logical voice in her head influencing what she saw said" I agree with it and then put it to one side and use it to validate or refute that what has been shown to me" which sounds a pretty good position to take IMHO.

RR

[redraven]

Just a quick update...

I am finding it very difficult to create a guided meditation, I think that probably says something about my state of competence at this present moment in time. However, I have used a more basic approach and this has produce a few results. I have chosen my subject to contemplate and I have embarked on what I term a stage 1 meditation. This means that I have meditated in private at home. A stage 2 meditation will be to travel to the site and attempt to meditate there when I am happy or can go no further with the results of stage 1.
The results, when I post them, will take the form of short concise statements, some no more than 2 words, you take from this what you will.
Of course, this whole exercise may be the result of my subconscious mind processing what I have already read somewhere else and of course, you are free to dismiss it if that is your point of view. I make no claims about the validity of what I have seen, I am merely sharing the information shown to me from wherever that has originated from.
I go on hols in a few days time (Is that a collective cheer I hear? ) and am visiting Ireland for a week, so am hoping for some inspiration there too, and an opportunity to do some serious work with this.

RR

[Craig]

Hi RR,

Having been away I was not aware that you had been trying this - you are very brave.

I note that that thread has settled a bit and I was wondering how you were getting on?

In the meantime may I ask how you are carrying out these guided meditations? As an old feral I have found it necessary to throw out most of what I was taught by men regarding meditation. It is all too intense, too focused.

In my experience you have to stop seeking and begin to listen. In what I have begun to term full-awareness meditation I have, for over twenty years now, had many experiences which have, upon careful reflection, informed my understanding and practice.

In full-awareness meditation you do not focus, you do not try to guide things, instead you open yourself up to all the physical and metaphysical stimuli in a particular place. I have described the general method elsewhere so I won't bore you with it again, except to say that it is a slow method, but one that can be rewarding if you can make the time to do it.

Onto another topic, but still from this thread. UPG - unsubstantiated by whom? Is this the old saw that if I can't rub your nose on it or sprinkle it upon your tongue then it is unproven and thus of less worth? To put it simply - bollocks. Some of the greatest visionaries in human history got their wisdom from such individually perceived experiences with their gods. Should we just ignore what they have taught us?

That I can and do see a deity I know as Arawn, at every funeral I attend, needs no substantiation by me to anyone else. Perhaps if you were at my side and I pointed him out he might deign to share his presence with you, and perhaps he may not. It may not be your time to perceive him.

What we can do is to share experiences of deities, ancestors and spirits and see where we can find congruence. We can also compare these experiences to the available writen and archaeological record. The important point being though that just because no-one else has had that experience does not devalue it for the person who did, nor does it make it less important.

The exciting part will come when we do find congruence and can cross-reference it to the written record.

However, if we begin from a position of doubt we will learn little except the negative and we will drive away many people who may have something truly wonderful to share.

Bendithion,
Craig <o>.

[redraven]

Hello Craig,
I have modified my techniques since writing these posts. I do agree that the "mainstream" meditative techniques are too intense, you are thinking about technique instead of opening your senses, wondering if your posture is correct instead of feeling and experiencing the subtle touch of spirit, pretty much like failing to see the woods for the trees.
I have found the techniques used in spiritual healing to work the best for me. They heighten my senses to a state that is more conducive with contact with spirit.
I have also been doing some studying of brain dynamics, in particular, brain waves. You may be aware that there are four types, beta, which are the normal waking activity waves, alpha, which are associated with meditative states and have been linked with immune system health, theta waves, which are associated with a shift in consciousness and delta waves, which take two forms, one with dream states and the other with deep sleep and no dreams.
It is thought that the move from the alpha waves to theta waves is where we have our spiritual "experiences".
I have been guilty of making some misguided assumptions about the nature of revelations. I am finding a lot of contact made with me is when I am traveling between jobs at work, I have read that when driving, you can enter the alpha state, especially if the road ahead is uneventful and then you can involuntarily enter the theta state, thus, contact is made. It is said that this can be responsible for the loss of time experienced and I have certainly experienced this.
So, it is ongoing, as I am sure your experiences are, and I have not stopped, although I have stopped posting about them. The idea about posting my impressions about Arbor Low was not a self obsessed blog, even if that is what it may appear to some, but a record that could be referred to if any further research sheds some new information about the site. Thus, my UPG becomes SPG, and we have an example of revelation made to a normal individual who claims no special skills or insights, and maybe, just maybe, could encourage others to explore their own experiences and, if this site is accommodating, to post their experiences without fear of ridicule.

RR

[crowman]

Just reading through these old threads and wondered how you were getting on with this? Ive just read this thread tonight but have already mentioned my subtle brush with the Grey Mare whilst on Dartmoor (and the helpful Hawk who i ignored so well to my almost peril!) I'd certainly be interested in other peoples experiences as since joining caerfeddwyd ive had some thoughts/ dreams/ ideas that have come to me seemingly out of the blue... i cant for the life of me remember thinking about them previously, its almost too coincidental to be coincidence. Mostly theyve arrived whilst out walking in the form of random ideas - my recent solstice ceremony formed whilst out walking, the words just seemed to flow from somewhere