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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 6:46:35 GMT -1
So, where do you all stand on animal sacrifice as a legitimate, pragmatic and necessary practice within the emerging Brythnonic community and / or practice?
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Post by Craig on Oct 30, 2008 6:55:47 GMT -1
Always with the big questions this one As a person who has killed animals with my bare hands, knife and gun [for food, not pleasure], and also a person who spent thirty years as a vegetarian it is a subject I have pondered often. I do not see the killing of an animal just to create or enhance a connection to a god, ancestor or spirit of place as being necessary in these times. Nor do I see a necessity for any particular personal or community ritual. However, the choice and then professional slaughter of an animal to feature in a feast would be acceptable. I would expect people to honour the beast in question and to make use of all parts. First cut of the meat could be dedicated to the gods or ancestors.
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 7:42:45 GMT -1
if someone were to hunt or raise an animal and bring it to a gathering to eat, that would be fine with me. if they wanted to slaughter it and prepare it them self and dedicate the process and the fist cut of cooked meat to the gods, that too would be fine with me.
the process and ritual of animal sacrifice in santeria, candomble and voudon today work well.
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Post by potia on Oct 30, 2008 8:53:03 GMT -1
I don't see that it would be a necessary part of Brythonic practice but it could be an optional part for those that have the means and skills to either raise or source an animal and get it slaughtered in an appropriately respectful manner.
Personally I have neither the means of skills so Iit's not something I'd do but I'd be happy to share in a feast where the meat had been chosen and prepared in such a manner.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 30, 2008 9:24:47 GMT -1
I don't see a problem in sacrificing a animal to a certain god. Then cooking it and like others have said and setting aside the first portion to that god, then the rest eaten by does taking part. Sacrifice means 'to make holy' which as a meat eater I have no problem with. The killing should be done by a trained professional hopefully to minimise the suffering.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 9:44:36 GMT -1
What about simply sacrificing without eating the meat?
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 9:48:16 GMT -1
no.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 9:49:59 GMT -1
Ok, what about sacrificing without eating the meat, and why?
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 10:45:46 GMT -1
no again. its wasteful. half the point is about the sharing of the meal between the family and the gods.
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Post by Francis on Oct 30, 2008 11:17:36 GMT -1
Paul, you ask about animal sacrifice without eating the meat.
Well obviously the first thing we need to think about is what sacrifice means, particularly in the context of living in twenty first century Britain. For me it has to me the loss or giving up of something of value (should go without saying that whether it has financial value or not is irrelevant).
What does it mean, or what functional, purpose could it have to a god or spirit?
I work with some of the lesser Spirits of Place of the woods of the valley I live in. Where some of these have been clear felled over the last 20-30 years they are regenerating now with trees - mostly planted (daft forestry commission policy, although to be fair they're improving their ideas now) but some naturally through self-sown seed and coppice growth.
These places though aren't able to get beyond the scrub stage and it is thought unlikely that they will ever become true woodland again. (the general public tend to doubt this is true - I won't go into the reasons in this post as it isn't relevant to the question, but if you think it important to this then ask)
The culprit is the alien grey squirrel.
Hunting these is part of my relationship with the Spirits of Place that I work with. In a bad year I've killed just under 200.
Obviously I can't eat all of these. The bodies of those that I don't eat I place where they I feel they will be of most value -perhaps near badger setts.
This slaughter is a sacrifice to the Spirits of Place that I work with. The sacrifice is not the life of the squirrel, but the effect it has on hardening me. It makes me less sensitive - it changes how I relate to animals. It requires any feelings of empathy or sympathy with them to be pushed away while the deed is being done, and after the killing a little less comes back each time. I lose something and that is the sacrifice.
As with all sacrifice though there is a hoped for give and take - and other relationships are forged in the emotional cauldron that this sort of killing-sacrifice creates. Bonds with the woodlands, and Spirits of Place of those woodlands, that have the reality and depth that comes with the full spectrum (light to dark if you will) of emotion and deed to that bond.
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 11:30:19 GMT -1
poor ickle squirrels! how can you kill the goddesses creations like that! brute! really interesting take on the idea of sacrifice there stephen. i like it a lot. lee
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Post by Craig on Oct 30, 2008 12:08:01 GMT -1
The Grey Squirrel is an abomination and must be purged . Seriously though I don't slow the car for them or rabbits.
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 12:13:14 GMT -1
roadkill
om nom nom nom
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 30, 2008 12:34:14 GMT -1
don't forget, sacrifice in the iron age could be chucking your torc or brooch into the lake. It doesn't have to be all wicker-men and chicken-blood in a bowl. You could sacrifice for a feast by spending far too much on good meat from a good traditional butchers.
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Post by Francis on Oct 30, 2008 12:57:44 GMT -1
You could sacrifice for a feast by spending far too much on good meat from a good traditional butchers. Or come and visit next me spring, watch a lamb being born or see a newly born one. We can make a note of which one it is(everythings double tagged these days - soon they'll have to be electronically tagged for goodness sake) then you can come and see it whenever you want, and in the autumn you can buy it off me (At a very fair price!). I can organise butchering etc. I don't want to be patronising about how this relates to sacrifice, but you would have chosen an animal that was going to die for you and looked into its eyes - if not shortly before death then at least at some point in its life. There would be an element of unpredictability - the one that is 'yours' may fatten well or may not - you may have a good harvest or you may not. If it helped then following Teg's suggestion I would be prepared to accept a vast sum of money as sacrifice in return for the animal. But only if that was important to you - otherwise it would be mates rates or exchange? The advantage to you is you'll know its had a good life, and you get to be involved in the cycle more intimately.
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Post by Francis on Oct 30, 2008 13:01:44 GMT -1
I'm not making the above suggestion as a commercial thing, so I hope it's not against forum rules on selling/advertising - I'm genuinely offering it as an option for any member of the tribe who feels they would gain something from doing it. I'm not looking to make my fortune from it!
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 30, 2008 13:07:16 GMT -1
not at all, thanks for the fantastic offer Francis. That's a brilliant thing to do, and one I wouldn't mind paying that little bit extra for
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 13:07:54 GMT -1
i think that is something i might take you up on Stephen, if not a whole lamb then perhaps go halves on one with someone else (a household of 2 means half a lamb would be too big for the freezer ) it is quite a sombering feeling really. having spent a lot of my growing up working on the family farms, all the meat eaten is either the calf you were taking care of or the piglets you were thinking were so cute several months ago. i think the key time is to see the slaughter itself. to see the animal die, to know what it looks like and sounds like and smells like. that is the point we shy away from i think - the actual death itself.
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Post by potia on Oct 30, 2008 13:27:28 GMT -1
I have eaten goat kid that was from animals I helped raise, bottle feeding them when my mum had a small holding a few years ago now and it was not easy for me to take that first bite so I can appreciate what you are saying Stephen. I've not seen actual slaughtering though and I expect I would find that difficult having never seen it before.
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