|
Post by aelfarh on Oct 30, 2008 14:12:15 GMT -1
Important subject I'm going to give my personal point of view For me, all life is sacred and only need to be taken as result of survival. That of course include eating, self defense, protecting our safety and health, etc. As for a sacrifice as a gift to the gods, I think is all about giving something of value to them. In ancient societies an animal was something of big value, not only for economic reasons, but for survival reasons. They have no Tescos to go shopping, food was not available so easely, animal or harvest offerings had a very different meaning. So, putting that in the context of XXI century, how much sacrifice we are doing in offering a squirel (or any other animal) as a gift?. Are we really willing to give something of great value for us, something that affects our live style in the same way that an ancient one will be affected by that? Now, giving empathy or sympathy for living things is a proper gift? Now there's another kind of sacrifice, the one who is related with the renewal of the cosmos where life is a must. For that I really like the approach that Erynn Rowan Laurie has done on her essay on sacrifice. And the option given by her makes sense to me. www.seanet.com/~inisglas/essaysacrifice.html
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2008 14:57:27 GMT -1
i have just skimmed throough that essay and find a flaw in it that i cant get past.
she effectively says that we can substitute plants instead of flesh and blood or gold. in those cases it isnt the person who is making the sacrifice - they arent giving anything up or going without, it is the plant which is doing so. plants she says are sentient beings.
the point of sacrifice is that we give up something, whether it is a prized possession or a stud bull. we should feel a loss of some kind. by going out and buying a plant to sacrifice all you are giving up is a walk to the shop or even 5 mins to surf the internet and buy the dried plant.
re. the bull - to qualify, my own argument would counter that in this case it is the bull that is making the sacrifice i.e its life. yes thats true. in the past however a cow or animal was far more significant and important and was thus refelcted as such to our ancestors. today - it is stilla valuable commodity but if you have raised it and looked after it - to kill it, cook it and give a chunk away to the gods plus those you share an aelwyd with - than you really are giving a large chunk of the worth of that animal away. to someone who makes a living from livestock - that is a palpable sacrifice.
to most of us, going to the butcher and buying a very expensive and fine cut of beef and NOT eating most of it but leaving it for the gods would be considered a sacrifice. expecially if you prepare it with good food and expensive wine.
now if you went and bough a sapling of an apple tree and over 10 years nurtured it and tended it with great care, then when the first crop comes you gave it ALL away - that would be more of a sacrifice. if you went and spent a chunk of your salaray on a commisioned gold bracelet and threw it inot a bog - that would be a sacrifice.
|
|
|
Post by aelfarh on Oct 30, 2008 15:16:40 GMT -1
I think we are saying the same thing ancestrallee,
But I want to make a differentation between to "grades" of sacrifice.
1) Sacrifice as a gift. In that sense, we agree, actually you say the same as I did with other words, this kind of sacrifice is all about giving something of great value for you, not in offering another being life.
2) Sacrifice as a renewal of the cosmos, that kind of sacrifice involve death for sure, and in most of ancient cultures involve self-sacrifice. The ones who make the sacrifice were not the Priest, but the one who willingly gave his life. This kind of sacrifice has teological and cosmological meanings beyond a gift, or a "I give you, you give me" treat. And is my understanding that is that case on wich Ms. Laurie is talking about .
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Oct 30, 2008 15:31:46 GMT -1
So, putting that in the context of XXI century, how much sacrifice we are doing in offering a squirel (or any other animal) as a gift?. I think you have misunderstood what I was saying.
|
|
|
Post by aelfarh on Oct 30, 2008 19:43:34 GMT -1
Probably Francis... on which way you see that?
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Oct 30, 2008 20:20:04 GMT -1
Okay, sacrifice. Such a neo-Druidic bugbear.
Most simply do not understand the difference between an offering and a sacrifice. Whilst an offering is indeed a 'sacrifice' ie sacer, to make sacred, there is a significant difference between the two concepts in practice.
Basically an offering is an act of worship, to show the Gods you love Them and hopefully They will be nice to you in the future. A sacrifice is made with intent they will do something for you.
The chieftain having the sword made and placing it in the pool may indeed be offering a sacrifice to the Gods in preperation for a coming war, he could also be offering the valuable item as an offering. The purpose of the rite lies with the priest who oversees it. This kind is also moreoften about demonstrating the wealth of the chief. It's been worked out that up until the Middle Ages a sword was worth the equivalent value to a mid level family estate car.
"Bleedin' 'ell mate, if 'e can put that big knife in the sacred well how much has he got if he can afford that?"
This belies the sorcerous sacrifice, the concious manipulation of the living life force by the presiding priest. The direction of the energy of a living being to a specific end, the greater the life force the greater the requirement. This method is extant within occult circles.
|
|
|
Post by littleraven on Oct 30, 2008 20:23:53 GMT -1
Incidentally, I think as Brythons we should utilise the Tarobolium sacrifice. Even though Mithraic in origin the significance of Bulls is obvious in insular mythology and I'm not one for neglecting quality stuff.
Let's see how that one goes down at Druid camp.
|
|
|
Post by megli on Oct 31, 2008 15:40:44 GMT -1
Oh that I'd love to see.
|
|
|
Post by arth_frown on Oct 31, 2008 16:22:21 GMT -1
It will be worth the price of the ticket just to see the look on everyone's face.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2008 8:27:44 GMT -1
We took a bunch of 8 / 9 year olds to the woods to celebrate birthdays yesterday, an it occurred to me that a piñata ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C3%B1ata ) filled with red sweets and the like would be a GREAT way to introduce modern children to the concept of animal sacrifice.... maybe next year.....
|
|
|
Post by Tegernacus on Nov 1, 2008 9:51:21 GMT -1
that's a great idea Paul. Especially for town kids, a lot of whom haven't even seen an animal outside a zoo.
I think the Taurobolium is also a fantastic idea, especially at a Tribal gathering. Methinks the Criobolium would be a tad more practical though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2008 3:38:49 GMT -1
This slaughter is a sacrifice to the Spirits of Place that I work with. The sacrifice is not the life of the squirrel, but the effect it has on hardening me. It makes me less sensitive - it changes how I relate to animals. It requires any feelings of empathy or sympathy with them to be pushed away while the deed is being done, and after the killing a little less comes back each time. I lose something and that is the sacrifice. As with all sacrifice though there is a hoped for give and take - and other relationships are forged in the emotional cauldron that this sort of killing-sacrifice creates. Bonds with the woodlands, and Spirits of Place of those woodlands, that have the reality and depth that comes with the full spectrum (light to dark if you will) of emotion and deed to that bond. I have re-read this post a few times...sometimes a statement will strike me and I find myself thinking about it long afterwards. This is one of those posts. My hat's off to you, Francis, for an incredibly poignant and profound statement here. I grew up in a family that raised cattle in Montana and everyone hunted. I have delved into the subject of the "Sacred Hunt" and now practice primitive archery--however, I have not been hunting in many decades as I found that the activity was changing me in ways that I wasn't sure that I was ok with. Your eloquent statement has touched me profoundly and has caused me to re-evaluate my stance on the subject. Just felt compelled to acknowledge that and to say Thank You Have a wonderful day!! Kenneth
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2008 11:40:50 GMT -1
I do not see the killing of an animal just to create or enhance a connection to a god, ancestor or spirit of place as being necessary in these times. Nor do I see a necessity for any particular personal or community ritual. However, the choice and then professional slaughter of an animal to feature in a feast would be acceptable. I would expect people to honour the beast in question and to make use of all parts. First cut of the meat could be dedicated to the gods or ancestors. That sums up my feelings on this one. If something is important enough to warrant a sacrifice of blood, it should be your own blood.
|
|
|
Post by beith on Nov 4, 2008 15:51:33 GMT -1
Hi, Firstly, why would anyone want to introduce children to the concept of 'animal sacrifice'?!! That's a rather anachronous 'introduction' for our times. Teaching respect for life and "take only what you need" and "be thankful if life has been taken so you may eat" is a better introduction I think. Likewise, no disrespect to Francis at all, but I would not equate the hardening of one's attitude to life-taking to the notion of "sacrifice". Those to me are very different things. The latter being an offering of an important gift for a sought effect, the former being a desensitization to slaughter through experience and practice. By analogy, could one equate the work and desensitized attitude to slaughter of those who work in abbatoirs as "sacrifice"? Please be clear I'm not making statements of judgement at all, merely musing on the words used as I see personal desensitization to killing as a totally different thing to a personal sacrifice or extra-personal sacrifice where other life is 'offered'. (eg. I'd happily go out and "sacrifice" the drunken loutish teenagers drinking and vandalising in this area but I don't think the courts would stand over my "offering for the greater good"! ) A general question - do you all think that modern day notions of sacrifice and offering are rather coloured by modern personal ethics rather than contextual historical notions? Looking historically at the concept of deliberate killing of animals (or humans) in ancient celtic society and mythos- it's somewhat different and rather contextual to function and circumstance than something personal. From insular written sources, as far as I can determine from my limited exposure to Irish myth and law, there is little in the mention of animal "sacrifice" or "offering" as a gift to Gods. Rather when an animal is sacrificed it is usually for the purposes of divination, most often linked to sovereignty rituals. The "Tarbhfheis" is the ritual slaughter of a bull whereby the slaughtered bull is boiled and the officiant consumes its meat, drinks its broth and bathes in it, before wrapping himself in the bullhide and lying down while four druids or filid sing "an incantation of truth" over him. The person the 'sleeper' dreams in his trance is the prophesied new king. It differs a bit from a Taurobolium in that it is a rite of divination linked to Kingship, rather than purification or protection of the existing king or emperor. Likewise the rites of Imbas forosnai and teinm laeda involved some use of meat from slaughtered animals in predictive rites of prophecy, which is revealed in spontaneous versification through the composition of extempore poetry following the rite. In the case of imbas forosnai, the concept of liminality is very much in evidence - applying to both the setting for the rite (at a boundary/threshold) and the chewing (but not consumption) of meats that would be considered "taboo" for eating, thereby putting them "outside the norm" and thus the seer in a liminal context. The horse ritual that is referred to sometimes also has connections with sovereignty with the ritual "mating" of the king with a mare to be sacrificed and has echoes in ancient Hindu lore of the Horse sacrifice as a kingship ritual. Although there is something that is attested in recently past folk tradition in some areas of Ireland which was the offering of a cockerel on Nov 11th in honour of St Martin. The blood was to be spilled on the threshold of a house to protect all within it for the coming year or the corners of the house annointed accordingly (similar I suppose to the Jewish Passover legend). Nov 11th on the old calendar falls at the feast of Samhain as the Julian-Gregorian transition moved the calendar on by ten days. I would think this occurrence in Irish folk tradition is an inherited adaption of an older samhain rite of animal sacrifice, but I do not know if anything is recorded in mythic tradition in that manner; or a borrowing into Irish tradition of the passover practice of daubing blood on the lintels and doorposts as a rite of protection from malaise or divine 'killing'. (The last recorded incidence of such sacrifice was in the late 1980s in N.Irl. as far as I know). Either way what is interesting is that the sacrifice must be done on the eve of the feast day or the day itself but not after - that is something that is reminiscent of the old Celtic practice of celebrating a festival from the preceding eve. eg. 31Oct for Nov 1st. From archaeological sources there are certainly plenty of instances of discovery of animal remains in the house-postholes or post-holes of ceremonial buildings (eg. Emain Macha, Newgrange etc) where perhaps this infers sacrifice of an animal as a means of propitiation of good luck or blessing for the building and those who use it; and there is plenty of votive offerings found in or near bodies of water, in burrows, grave goods, etc. But I think (happy to be corrected) that there is relatively little mention of animal sacrifice from written sources and when it is referred to, it's usually in context of a ritual of divination rather than a votive offering. Is animal sacrifice from either mythic or later folkloric sources represented in Brythonic tradition? In Classical sources commenting on practices in Gaul it's more of a mixture as far as I can see - where there is common mention of the sacrifice of animals and humans in relation to divination and also after battle or to ensure good harvest or in times of bad circumstance. Strabo and Diodorus Siculus give accounts of vates as the direct officiants of sacrifices where determination of events from the death-throws of the victim (animal or human) is performed. There is mention of druids being present at such rites also. Though there is reference in Strabo's Geographia to burning animals and humans in the 'Colossus' which is repeated by Caesar in De Bello Gallico. I found note in Nora Chadwick's book on The Druids (reference below) citing instances of Gaulish sacrifice of men to their Gods after battle ~ she cites from Pomponius Mela who records in first century AD that such things are now historical during his time; and she refers to the poet Sopater (270BC) who records that the Gauls burned their prisoners after battle as a sacrifice to their Gods ~ presumably an offering of thanks for victory. Citing further from Chadwick, she notes that Caesar records that "Upon occasions of great danger, whether public or private, they immolate human victims or vow to do so, employing the druids at the conducting of these sacrifices." (it should be noted though that Caesar does not make the same threefold distinctions of Bards/Vates/Druids as earlier writers. I think he just distinguishes Druidic and warrior castes) and she notes that he says this is done "in order to appease the gods a life must be paid for a man's life" .
Returning to Caesar, he states that "Others make use of colossal figures composed of twigs which they fill with living men and set on fire" and that the victims burnt are usually criminals but innocents are used if there are not enough criminals. Chadwick notes that no mention of divination is made in this instance and that the passage is very brief in account of sacrifices of the Gauls.
Lucan and Pliny also give some brief mention of sacrifices as offerings to Gods - the latter in the famous (but elsewhere unattested) "mistletoe rite" where two white bulls are sacrificed; the former in his poem Pharsalia where mention is made of "barbarous rites" performed in sacred groves where trees are made into effigies of the Gods and loaded with "hideous offerings and gore" (Pharsalia iii 399)
[Reference on classical sources via Nora Chadwick "The Druids", Cardiff, University of Wales Press, 1997]
It seems to me that from a historical standpoint, there is far greater mention of sacrifice from Continental sources than insular - though whether that impression is due to my lack of wider exposure to the subject, or to the selective filters of a "hostile witness" account from classical and later medieval periods I don't know.
From what I've encountered of Irish traditional material, most mention of sacrificed animals or use of meat in ritual that is to do with rites of divination and sovereignty rather than "offerings of praise" to Gods. There is little direct mention of human sacrifice although it is referred to in some poems recalling a deity called "Crom Dubh" as far as I recall; and in respect of inference of "head cults" in the Celtic world. Interestingly, the "Bog Bodies" discovered in recent years in parts of rural Ireland look to have been deliberately slaughtered and buried on the boundary of tribal lands (a liminal setting) - whether for propitiatory rite or as punishment of criminals being killed for a crime and placed beyond the boundary of a túath (a punishment of banishment generally) is unclear. But votive offerings in other areas including quern stones, butter, statues, etc. I'd be interested to know whether the reasons or circumstances for sacrifice as outlined by classical writers referring to Gaul (who also make reference to Britain as a place governed by ritualistic doings) are borne out in Brythonic folk and literary tradition? And from archaeology? I imagine Wales and Ireland to be similar in many respects of what is recorded in mythos and lore but as I am unfamiliar with Welsh tradition, it would be great to hear more about it. Likewise if I'm wrong in my assumptions of the circumstances for sacrifice in Irish lore, I'd be happy to have examples otherwise.
Best wishes to you all, especially those of you still awake after this rather long post!
Beith
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 4, 2008 17:54:41 GMT -1
deleted - see next post - makes more sense with Beith quoted at beginning
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 4, 2008 17:58:03 GMT -1
Likewise, no disrespect to Francis at all, but I would not equate the hardening of one's attitude to life-taking to the notion of "sacrifice". Those to me are very different things. The latter being an offering of an important gift for a sought effect, the former being a desensitization to slaughter through experience and practice. By analogy, could one equate the work and desensitized attitude to slaughter of those who work in abbatoirs as "sacrifice"? This is really a topic for face to face discussion. Nobody comes to a discussion like this without baggage, and literally prejudice. People read what they are expecting to read. I'll try and explain my thinking more explicitly. Sacrifice is ultimately about exchange and the movement of energy. Exchange requires currency of some sort. In the simplest transactions that which is exchanged is itself the currency of the transaction, but that isn't always the case. If an abattoir worker wants to bring some excitement to his child with a gift, he may choose to walk into a toy shop and exchange some of his hard earned money for a toy. He gives this toy to his child and in these media-advertising-controlled days the child is delighted. What is the nature of the exchange between child and father - what did the toy represent, what was the currency of the exchange? Was it the 'killing' of the 30 cattle he slaughtered in exchange for the money to buy the gift? Was it sacrifice of the father's time spent in such a grim task, or the effect the task had on him emmotionally? Was it the affection of the father for the child. what was 'given'? It wasn't just just the exchange of a piece of petro-chemical industry tainted plastic crap made in china by some poor sod driven off their land and in to a factory for a slave's wage. The exchange between the father and child ultimately one rooted in emotion and intangibles and relationship and bonding. The exchange between father and child was one based on love, of care of devotion. But the cost to the father, the sacrifice the father made was not the same thing as the gift. That is the crucial point. The cost to me of killing the squirrels is the change, the hardening that has on me. But the cost to me is not the gift of that sacrifice to the Spirit of Place. The gift is the effect the removal of these alien squirrels has on the woodland. And as to me the physicality of a place is the source of the Spirit of Place, it is a very direct gift. The sacrifice I make is not always the same thing as the currency of the gift I give. The medium of the exchange is almost always an intangible - an intent, a focused energy. People may mistake that for the physicality of the symbol of exchange, and even more easily mistake what the symbol of exchange represents in full to both the giver and receiver - very rarely the same thing. (You may disagree about the impact of squirrels on certain types of woodland - that is not particularly relevant to this discussion )
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Nov 4, 2008 18:01:11 GMT -1
incidentally Francis, if the camp goes ahead next year, would you be able to keep some of the squirrel for us to cook and eat?
ever so curious about trying them you see, especially after seeing HFW eating them on river cottage this week.
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 4, 2008 18:18:10 GMT -1
A general question - do you all think that modern day notions of sacrifice and offering are rather coloured by modern personal ethics rather than contextual historical notions? Yes! But we're as real as our ancestors - and with care and thought it is possible for our insights to be of value. I don't imagine our ancestors motivations and actions were always wholly above questioning
|
|
|
Post by Francis on Nov 4, 2008 18:58:38 GMT -1
incidentally Francis, if the camp goes ahead next year, would you be able to keep some of the squirrel for us to cook and eat? ever so curious about trying them you see, especially after seeing HFW eating them on river cottage this week. No problem.
|
|