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Post by stefan on Feb 5, 2009 15:13:02 GMT -1
All good and valid points.
I guess why I'm not annoyed by anyone's opinions here is because non of this is precious to me, I can pick it up, say to myself, I've never thought of applying myself this way before and use it. Tomorrow something else may come along and blow my previous thinking apart. Hang on tightly, let go lightly. I found this book very inspiring and refreshing, a new hazel nut to the broth, which indeed has provided food for thought. A thread to help me with assessing why I need a new direction from the current Druid movement. The Pendragon book has been a tool which I have been very open about. The thread is called, 'Why I like the Pendragon book, not, the Pendragon book is the word, the way the truth.
I think at Flag Fen, everyone had a different agenda's, issues, points of contention, along with many upon which we also concurred. It merely scratched the surface.
If we take emotion out of the equation, then we see that Kenneth hit the nail on the head. This site and the people on it are very important at this moment in time. Intellect, commitment, dedication, not suffering fools, straight talking, a real desire to aim to-wards something with substance to it that feels more in harmony with our ancestors are all values that we share.
Like I said, I feel the Pendragon book has upped the game, as I move on it may well end up in the bin. But when I compare it to an OBOD course, a Bobcat workshop etc, the concepts its forced me to consider have been more profound than the rest put together. And for that at this moment in time it not only demands my respect, but also my gratitude.
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Post by Francis on Feb 5, 2009 21:04:23 GMT -1
I think at Flag Fen, everyone had a different agenda's, issues, points of contention, along with many upon which we also concurred. It merely scratched the surface. I strongly believe we need to start thinking about meeting up again. We've all had time to think and place in some kind of context, within our own paths, what may have begun that night - but let's start thinking about dates now. If we have a date in mind for meeting it might galvanise our private thinking, and allow for something with greater focus than last time - (as our expectations of the night's direction would be better appreciated in advance by all of us?) Flag Fen may well have been a significant beginning, but I'm not sure, and if it was - what was it a beginning of...? I don't pretend for a moment that I don't have my own agenda or hopes!!
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Post by stefan on Feb 6, 2009 7:42:17 GMT -1
One of the point I put down for FF was, "What do we believe?".
Since joining this forum I have tried to convey just that. It was not done from an egotistical point of view, or for attention seeking, just that I have finally reached the stage on my path were I have finally felt able to do just that, talk about my belief structure.
I think you have to be quite brave to do that. I have been open about my beliefs. They have reached a point were they can no longer be historically backed up and so they have been lambasted. To be honest I think if anyone else here detailed exactly what it is they really believed, they too stand a good chance of being derided.
But I think before another meeting can be organized, perhaps another thread needs to be started here about personal belief structures. If there is enough common ground, then we have a place to begin such a conclave. And we need to be brave enough to speak our truth. I already have mine, perhaps its time for others to hold the silver branch?
Also, after everything I have said about my own beliefs, I would not be welcome at such a gathering. My personal fantasy seems to be one that others find difficult to take seriously.
One final thing I would like to make clear to everyone here who was not at FF, or who belong to other existing Druid Orders and are proud to do so. I know when I made the No Druids statement, that a common re bust would have been, "Who the hell does he think he is?".
At no point was the No Druids stance made from a sense of superiorly. When I've talked about my beliefs, a common reply is, thats no better than what the Druids today are already saying. And really that was my point from the very beginning. I don't have all the answers, I'm no better than Damn, or Bobcat, Greywolf etc, indeed their visions of Druidry seem to be far more appealing to a wider public. Its just that its not Druidic, I looked at myself long and hard before I looked at anyone else. When I put my life and guts into that movement for over 20 years and realized at FF that I was kidding myself to think I was a Druid, then I was able to look around and see the whole picture for what it was.
So who the hell do I think I am? Some one who so very desperately wanted to be a Druid, but who in the cold light of day had to finally accept it could never be.
Stefan
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Post by Adam on Feb 6, 2009 9:22:40 GMT -1
Stefan,
as one of those against whom the charge of lambasting your beliefs can probably be raised, I feel a need to answer. It was not and never has been my intention to criticize your beliefs, and I know (belief structures are an area of special interest to me) that belief is not maintained by historical veracity alone. There is the personal experience, both inner and outer. And there is also, very often, a sense of aesthetics. A belief can become more plausible when we sense that it fits elegantly within our existing model of the world.
If I were to be seen to criticize, it was because I felt that by your statement you had raised yourself above the game. And for me, like it or not, that meant you had set yourself the goal of higher standards than some of the vacuous new-age pap creators out there. That makes you important to me :-)
But I agree... the opportunity to openly explore belief, its origins and consequences, would be of benefit to me. Other than here, I don't think I've found many people that I feel I could do that with and find that it has much meaning. I'll avoid the term "my truth" though ;-)
Adam
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 10:39:48 GMT -1
standing in a river to commune with its spirit.... a line from Stefan. What's new about that? It's one of the most basic things to do!
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Post by megli on Feb 6, 2009 12:09:45 GMT -1
Absolutely. That 'Picti-Keltic' druid guy was banging on about it 20 years ago in 'Voices from the Circle: The Heritage of Western Paganism'.
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Post by redraven on Feb 6, 2009 15:47:54 GMT -1
One of the point I put down for FF was, "What do we believe?". Since joining this forum I have tried to convey just that. It was not done from an egotistical point of view, or for attention seeking, just that I have finally reached the stage on my path were I have finally felt able to do just that, talk about my belief structure. I think you have to be quite brave to do that. I have been open about my beliefs. They have reached a point were they can no longer be historically backed up and so they have been lambasted. To be honest I think if anyone else here detailed exactly what it is they really believed, they too stand a good chance of being derided. I don't believe the lambasting was personal, Stefan, more a parody of the stereo-typical neo-pagan. But I think before another meeting can be organized, perhaps another thread needs to be started here about personal belief structures. If there is enough common ground, then we have a place to begin such a conclave. And we need to be brave enough to speak our truth. I already have mine, perhaps its time for others to hold the silver branch? Well, mine has changed drastically and is rooted in quantum mechanics. Also, after everything I have said about my own beliefs, I would not be welcome at such a gathering. My personal fantasy seems to be one that others find difficult to take seriously. And I find it difficult to believe you would not be welcome. One final thing I would like to make clear to everyone here who was not at FF, or who belong to other existing Druid Orders and are proud to do so. I know when I made the No Druids statement, that a common re bust would have been, "Who the hell does he think he is?". At no point was the No Druids stance made from a sense of superiorly. When I've talked about my beliefs, a common reply is, thats no better than what the Druids today are already saying. And really that was my point from the very beginning. I don't have all the answers, I'm no better than Damn, or Bobcat, Greywolf etc, indeed their visions of Druidry seem to be far more appealing to a wider public. Its just that its not Druidic, I looked at myself long and hard before I looked at anyone else. When I put my life and guts into that movement for over 20 years and realized at FF that I was kidding myself to think I was a Druid, then I was able to look around and see the whole picture for what it was. So who the hell do I think I am? Some one who so very desperately wanted to be a Druid, but who in the cold light of day had to finally accept it could never be. Stefan And someone whom could have continued on that particular treadmill for as long as they wanted, but who chose to be honest with their self and was flexible and honest enough to recognize the fallacy of previous assumptions and acted accordingly. All I see is someone trying to be honest with their self and in their dealings with others. In my book, that is an admirable trait. RR
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Post by stefan on Feb 6, 2009 16:04:46 GMT -1
Yes I read Voices from the Circle too when it came out and thought of the Pictish guy when I read it in the Pendragon book. So yes, nothing new in itself, but combined with the other stuff, another example of inspiring practice.
Adam, your expectations of me are too high. If Damh, Bobcat, Greywolf or Carr Gomm openly explained their belief structure, they would be just as good as mine. Different, with different flaws and different strengths, but just as good.
The only difference that really matters, is that I could see non of them would have been recognized as Druidic by our ancestors. Or even if certain traits were familiar, we ourselves would not have cut the mustard. Plus it would have been just various traits, nothing more. Nothing really tangible.
Also remember this, to talk about your beliefs means speaking from the heart, not the head and if someone here tells you its a load of crap, its gonna hurt. So you had better be prepared for that and deal with it without going into a rage and telling everyone to fuck off!
There are no Druids, there may even be no common ground from which to create a cohesive new identity? Time will tell. I'm no more Brython than people here are Albion Conclave. But brothers may be able to stand before the same altar. We shall have to wait and see.
Stefan
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 16:11:01 GMT -1
Stefan wrote: "So who the hell do I think I am? Some one who so very desperately wanted to be a Druid, but who in the cold light of day had to finally accept it could never be."
Adam wrote: "If I were to be seen to criticize, it was because I felt that by your statement you had raised yourself above the game. And for me, like it or not, that meant you had set yourself the goal of higher standards than some of the vacuous new-age pap creators out there. That makes you important to me"
Ultimately, Stefan, your statement was what brought me to this forum and I think that I feel as Adam does in regards to who you are and the importance of the meeting at Flag Fen. Here I am several thousand miles away in the desert of the southwestern US spending so many years of my life trying to reconnect myself to an ancestral spiritual tradition. My frustration, similar to many here, has been the relative superficiality of most of what is presented as "truth" by the larger Pagan movement--at the same time I find that I am able to create a connection to this land that I live on and I think that I can find a relative truth in that association--what is real is real ;-) I eagerly look towards the membership of this and other fora to find congruence, inspiration and some sort of insight that others are having similar experiences to my own. This similarity of experience creates a certain momentum within my own practice that allows me to get to a deeper place in my own walk.
I believe that expanding on the "old ideas" and seeing their inspiration often requires more than just a passing understanding of those ideas. I agree that a working, fulfilling and continually growing and definable spiritual movement requires some sort of foundation--"here is what we believe and why".
The structure that any of us might be able to create in terms of what and why we believe what we do allows us to deepen our walk in specific directions. I don't believe that that same potential is present in the all inclusive, "everything is good and worthy" of being placed within this belief system of modern Druidry.
For me, a solid foundation of understanding has much to do with "spiritual technique"--understanding the history and the fundamentals of an approach allows us to have a certain technical proficiency. I can take a photograph of a beautiful landscape that might end up being a prized part of a photo album. The same landscape photographed by someone who has a technical proficiency with the art form has a better chance to make that a "work of art" maybe even a masterpiece. I can dump my literary guts onto a piece of paper and call this purge poetry, if I understand the technical "rules" that define a poem or poetry, I might be able to take that same emotional dump and create something that would be considered a "great work". The foundation of technical proficiency in spiritual working is something that I find incredibly important. If we are to follow in the footsteps of our ancestors, we have the benefit of standing on the shoulders of giants. At the same time, forging our spiritual walk within the parameters established by those giants allows a certain discipline to mold and shape our approach which makes it sharper, and in my opinion, more effective.
What does effective mean? For me, spiritual evolution is a progressive series of identification/dis-identification practices. As I identify with those aspects of my mundane, materialistic, ego driven life--including how I might describe myself in my spiritual walk, there should be the tools within my spiritual practice that will provide for me a radical dis-identification with those aspects of (small 's' ) self and the opportunity to re-identify with some eternal, ever-present awareness that is my (large 'S') Self. History provides the backdrop for what I identify with in the materialistic sense...I find it necessary to have that backdrop in order to makes sense of my dis-identification experiences. I view vision and history as equally necessary, both having to be measured against the other. Without history we have nothing to support our practice. Without vision, history is sterile dust.
Echoing Adam's sentiment, there seem precious few places in this world where such conversations are able to take place, I think that this is one of those places ;-)
Green Forests and Blue Skies!
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Post by stefan on Feb 6, 2009 16:24:03 GMT -1
Thanks for the kind words of support. FF made me realize above everything else, my weaknesses, failings and delusional thinking. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but hopefully one that will in time make me better.
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Post by Blackbird on Feb 6, 2009 18:34:47 GMT -1
I think another face-to-face meeting is definitely the way forward, and agree that we should arrange it asap. How about something over the weekend of the 13th/14th March? As to where - I don't mind - have car, will travel. I don't think we have to have a consensus on belief. Within any community, you are going to have differences and I honestly don't think it matters. We're not founding a church here, but gathering together people who have some kind of involvement with British spirituality. We all come from different backgrounds. We do have some gods held in common, but I don't see it as a problem that our practices might differ, or even that our fundamental worldviews might be different. What exactly we do want out of Brython, whether we hold any common aims, how we see our place in that and so forth - should be the agenda for our next meeting. As well as to enjoy each others company and share a few glasses of our favourite tipples
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Post by Lee on Feb 6, 2009 19:15:49 GMT -1
arch sounds fine to me. how about somewhere more northerly? several people went to the trouble of travelling long distances, so i thin it fair that those of us closer to FF took our turn to travel.
once we have a date etc we can start to think about agenda, i should think that brython is key
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Post by Blackbird on Feb 6, 2009 21:24:31 GMT -1
Perhaps scratch that weekend... just taken a booking for the 14th! I'm still free on the 21st/22nd and 28th/29th though. Spring even-nights might be an auspicious time for it?
Aye, further afield is fine by me, north or west would be fair. Anyone have a venue in mind? We could meet somewhere and do a rade type thing with a pub dinner, rather than staying overnight, as it's not really camping weather and B&B costs a fortune?
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Post by littleraven on Feb 7, 2009 0:21:05 GMT -1
So who the hell do I think I am? Some one who so very desperately wanted to be a Druid, but who in the cold light of day had to finally accept it could never be. I think many of us here originally wanted the same thing, for various reasons, and have come to much the same conclusion. It's liberating, I find. Your beliefs aren't being lambasted either, it's very much a case of lambasting sterotypical neo-pagan invention, an invention some of us are seeing in the Pendragon book. Please consider that a strong ethic of what we do here is that when we speak against something it's not to win points but in mutual learning born of respect for each other. We may criticise someone here, but we do it from a perspective of intrinsic respect, a very different perspective from the ego-based arguments prevalent elsewhere. Back to the Pendragon book. I actually don't have any issue with the probable newness of the techniques presented. It's simply that presenting itself as being the direct descendent of the original Druids is basically crap, and very misleading. Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love for something original to surface, but it's not this. It strikes me that you are experiencing what happened to many Wiccans a few years ago, when it came to common realisation that Wicca was in fact made up by a bloke in the 40s. Many jumped off into 'trad witchcraft', often itself made up from obscure sources but seeming more 'authentic', something similar seems to be happening with the Pendragon book IMHO. But heres a question for you, if you are now resigned to the conclusion that modern Druidry is a fantasy and you cannot call yourself one, why are you so drawn to a book that is most definately claiming to be Druidic?
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Post by stefan on Feb 7, 2009 12:38:17 GMT -1
I think LR its because I haven't entirely given up on Druidry, or not yet washed my hands of it completely. Perhaps in time I will, but at reaching the crossroads after FF, I have not fully decided which road to leave it by yet. This old serpent's still shedding his skin.
So the AC is in a state of melt down, the course, which was its bedrock now seems obsolete. FF striped me to the bones and took with it all my power, if I dare use that word for want of a better one.
The Pendragon material is perhaps the closest thing to how I wished Druidry might have been before I got involved in it. If it wasn't historically authentic, I was at least hoping modern Druidry had structure, that it felt more religious in the Hindu sense of the word. By that I mean its various sects at least had a common approach to the gods and that people were accountable. 20 odd years ago I had no idea you simply had to call yourself a Druid to be one. Self proclaimed status is one of my biggest issue's. It strips the term Druid of all credibility instantly. So if the modern movement did have its act together, I don't think I would be nearly as critical of it as I am. Like I said, we all have different reasons for abandoning the movement.
Again I lay much of the blame for the mess its in at the doorstep of the counter culture. So much of Druidrys ethos today seems identical to counter culture ethos. I think if more everyday people had hold of the reins things would be very different and far less loop the loop. Like I said on another thread, I'm of the counter culture myself, but I try not to bring those values to my spirituality.
Also the Pendragon book was very much becoming an aspect of my belief structure when I did identify myself as a Druid and perhaps I'm still struggling to let go of it? But I am really glad we discussed it, because compared to the superficial teachings of most of modern Druidry, it is at least very inteligent and well crafted.
A real problem for me now is that because I'm liberated from the term Druid, this free's me up to really explore the Neolithic, something I have always been reluctent to fully embrace. The original AC course remained specifically focused on the Iron Age. So just how fantastical my fantasies will become now is a somewhat uncomfortable dilema to consider? Oh god, not the Hypoboreans again, lol....
Sorry for the spelling mistakes, for some reason my computers refusing to spell check, ominously it was doing that the last time just before it crashed.
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Post by megli on Feb 8, 2009 14:46:32 GMT -1
clearly he is talking about the COSMIC snake, the creator-destroyer serpent who in fact does the reverse of earthly ones to show how it is not bound by such trivialites and is truly its own unique pan-spiritual serpent oneness. its obvious really. if you had the training and initiation process at the hands of the Fox-Maiden. Ah. How the ancient druids must have feared and revered her terrible paws, her hot breath, and her bark in the deep of the wind! As The Book of Taliesin states of y forwyn llwynog, the Fox-Maiden: hi yn da hi yn drwc hi yn aneglwc hi yn anamlwc hi a daw yn uynych o oerfel lloer she is good, she is bad she is hard to spot she is not obvious she often comes from the moon's chill
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Post by Tegernacus on Feb 8, 2009 16:37:41 GMT -1
I remember that. It's followed by the following (incomplete) verse that roughly translates as:
when she was good, she was very very good and when she was bad she was horrid
hmmm... wonder if that is an ancient reference to the weather?
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Post by clare on Feb 8, 2009 18:32:24 GMT -1
If a camp is decided on I can offer a bell tent that sleeps 5 or 6 and a solid fuel burner which means that things will be warm and dry in there at least. I don't have a vehicle though.
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Post by megli on Feb 8, 2009 22:53:48 GMT -1
I remember that. It's followed by the following (incomplete) verse that roughly translates as: when she was good, she was very very good and when she was bad she was horridhmmm... wonder if that is an ancient reference to the weather? Ah! Beautiful, Teg. Redolent of the rich wisdom of our ancestors, so much better than the cheap, horrible parody that passes for modern 'druidry'. If only we knew the wise wisdom of the fox-maiden in our own hearts!! So very...foxy! So deeply...maideny!!!
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