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Post by nellie on Dec 29, 2010 18:29:17 GMT -1
The internet is my main point of contact with other pagans - what ever flavour they may be. From reading on the net it seems that so many people talk of their patron or matron deities.
I've also read somewhere on the net that this idea of people, every day common people, having patrons or matrons is a relatively new concept - very much neo-pagan.
What do you folks think about this? Have the deities in question evolved since the paganism of antiquity so that now they are more inclined to patronage, or are we neo-pagans jumping the gun with patronage? Does a relationship with a deity (even a close one) necessarily mean they are your personal patron/matron?
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Post by deiniol on Dec 29, 2010 20:37:27 GMT -1
The internet is my main point of contact with other pagans - what ever flavour they may be. From reading on the net it seems that so many people talk of their patron or matron deities. I've also read somewhere on the net that this idea of people, every day common people, having patrons or matrons is a relatively new concept - very much neo-pagan. Indeed. My inclination is toward the latter argument. I suppose, ultimately, it depends on how one defines "patron": if we mean "a deity with whom one has a fairly close relationship, built over a long period of reciprocal interaction" then yeah, I guess it does mean that said deity is one's patron: after offering sacrifices over a lengthy period of time and receiving favours in return, I can confidently state that I've built up a good relationship with Grannos. I could therefore consider him my "patron". But I don't just worship Grannos: I could claim not dissimilar relationships with Alauna and Taranis. Are they my "patrons" too? Neopagan thought is generally quite insistent that you only get one patron (or a male-female pair, at a stretch) at a time. |
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Post by Adam on Dec 29, 2010 21:21:45 GMT -1
I'm always wary about claims of p/matronage... they almost invariably seem to be claims that attempt to confer some special status on the claimant... there is the Unwilling Acolyte, who I have lampooned elsewhere
P/Matronage, the way deiniol describes it, as a personal relationship... fine, but why give it such a name... it seems to be a way of marking oneself out as "chosen"... and I'm sorry but most of those who claim p/matronage then usually spout absolute romanticised "Mists of Avalon" stuff about their p/matron God/ess
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 29, 2010 21:23:23 GMT -1
The internet is my main point of contact with other pagans - what ever flavour they may be. From reading on the net it seems that so many people talk of their patron or matron deities. I've also read somewhere on the net that this idea of people, every day common people, having patrons or matrons is a relatively new concept - very much neo-pagan. Very much neo-pagan. The neo-pagans are jumping the gun with patronage Tricky one. For me, thats for the gods to decide & I'm not sure I'm that special or suitable. |
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Post by Heron on Dec 29, 2010 21:30:21 GMT -1
... I've also read somewhere on the net that this idea of people, every day common people, having patrons or matrons is a relatively new concept - very much neo-pagan. What do you folks think about this? Have the deities in question evolved since the paganism of antiquity so that now they are more inclined to patronage, or are we neo-pagans jumping the gun with patronage? Does a relationship with a deity (even a close one) necessarily mean they are your personal patron/matron? I've always been a little reticent about the term 'patron', not from any absolute disagreement with the concept but a feeling that the tone of it is not quite right. I'd be prepared to concede that this might just be a matter of personal terminological preference, but 'patron' seems too cold a term for the gods that I feel close to. |
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Post by potia on Dec 29, 2010 22:26:33 GMT -1
I'm about to stand up to be lampooned here  I do think of Epona as my matron deity (although I often use the term patron anyway even though it's technically incorrect). I think of her that way because of the depth of relationship I have with her. Although it is possibly something of a hangover from my pre-Brython background. Actually I have another relationship that could fall into a touch of Adam's wonderful Unwilling Acolyte description although I do think of myself as mortal honestly - special maybe  Do I think deities have changed over time? Yes. Do I think that means they are open to different styles of relationship than perhaps they once were? Probably. Does a close relationship with a deity mean they are your personal patron/matron? Nope, no more than a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex means you have to be lovers (only example I can think of right now as I'm tired!). Each relationship is different though and only you can judge what that relationship means to you. |
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Post by Tegernacus on Dec 30, 2010 8:15:47 GMT -1
Well, I've never heard of the term or the idea. I've lead a sheltered life, obviously |
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Post by nellie on Dec 30, 2010 9:15:31 GMT -1
Thanks for the replies. I agree with the point on terminology. Some words just make me feel uncomfortable. For example I'm really interested in working with plant spirits, but the terms of 'deva' and 'angle' just make me cringe. ;D Is there a term to describe a close relationship with a deity without refering to them as your patron? In the older threads I read regarding druidry I got the impression that the Brythonic project was aiming at a religion/spirituality in which everyone can be part of it without being any sort of spiritual leader? Does that sound right? Wouldn't the sort of relationship being talked of here be the sort of relationship that most of the people in that Brython tradition would be experiencing? I'm being so clumsy trying to explain what I mean  |
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Post by Adam on Dec 30, 2010 9:33:06 GMT -1
Actually I have another relationship that could fall into a touch of Adam's wonderful Unwilling Acolyte description although I do think of myself as mortal honestly - special maybe To be honest, there are more than a few barbs in that and my other descriptions that point at me too Bottom line, it's a word... my lampooning was aimed at those who come on to boards and say "my patron is the Morrighan" with the obvious desire to have everyone go "ooooh". We've all seen them, I'm sure... they would have you believe that they have the heads of their slain enemies littering their home ;D |
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Post by potia on Dec 30, 2010 16:25:50 GMT -1
Actually I have another relationship that could fall into a touch of Adam's wonderful Unwilling Acolyte description although I do think of myself as mortal honestly - special maybe To be honest, there are more than a few barbs in that and my other descriptions that point at me too Bottom line, it's a word... my lampooning was aimed at those who come on to boards and say "my patron is the Morrighan" with the obvious desire to have everyone go "ooooh". We've all seen them, I'm sure... they would have you believe that they have the heads of their slain enemies littering their home ;D I knew I was forgetting something. Now where did I put those heads? |
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Post by potia on Dec 30, 2010 16:36:23 GMT -1
In the older threads I read regarding druidry I got the impression that the Brythonic project was aiming at a religion/spirituality in which everyone can be part of it without being any sort of spiritual leader? Does that sound right? Wouldn't the sort of relationship being talked of here be the sort of relationship that most of the people in that Brython tradition would be experiencing? I'm being so clumsy trying to explain what I mean There are no overall leaders in Brython no, but there are those that have particular specialist knowledge in certain areas. When they share things from their areas of expertise the rest of us usually shut up and listen as we value their knowledge. Doesn't mean we won't disagree with them if we have the knowledge and understanding to but we listen carefully first Some within Brython have closer relationships with the land they live on, some with ancestors and some with deity. Those of us with close relationships with deities may have one particular relationship that is strongest or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 17:06:27 GMT -1
My own view of the divine is based on experience rather than on study. On that basis I don't see there being any Patron or Matron, the Gods that I am drawn too may change as my life, and it's experiances change. It's more a case of me choosing them rather than some God/ess choosing me. The one thing I would wish to point out is that in my personal observations of Deity, I do not worship. The Gods who made iron and storms did not make slaves. I connect not genuflect.
The notion of a Patron God seems very Christian, rather like the need for a personal saviour.
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Post by dreamguardian on Dec 30, 2010 18:18:39 GMT -1
... I don't see there being any Patron or Matron, the Gods that I am drawn too may change as my life, and it's experiances change. Pretty much how I feel. |
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Post by Heron on Dec 30, 2010 18:24:54 GMT -1
..... Is there a term to describe a close relationship with a deity without refering to them as your patron? They usually have names. Sometimes more than one name. And they might have a name that only you, or I or someone else uses with them. Some might need to be addressed formally, others familiarly. Or, with nameless ones, you just have to work out how best to get a response, supposing that, having identified them, their presence is real to you. |
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Post by redraven on Dec 30, 2010 18:43:22 GMT -1
There are some of us out there for whom names are not offered. This demonstrates that interactions are different for everyone and sometimes the best way of information exchange has to be established through the best means available. Unfortunately, a lot of neo-paganism is caught up in these methods of exchange (as per Adam's post) and completely miss the important part of the exchange, namely the information offered. I often think that if the word "fire" was heard in a group of pagans, the biggest topic of conversation would be who was the message was aimed at instead of leaving the burning building.
RR
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Post by nellie on Dec 30, 2010 19:33:32 GMT -1
ak, I knew I wasn't making myself very clear, I have this ability to completely misrepresent myself sometimes When I was speaking of leaders and non-leaders within Brython I was more thinking of your vision of the future of the Brython group. As was commented in an old thread, not everyone can be nor would want to be a priest. The Pope might be considered as being special to God, and yet whole convents of nuns devote their life to the same God but wouldn't be considered spiritual leaders. This is the sort of thing I am thinking of. The word patron/matron seems (to me) to be widely over-used within the wider pagan community. My point really is that there will be lots of people that have a relationship with one or multiple deities but that wouldn't want to use the term patron because of some of the connotations of its general use. In that instance how would you describe that kind of relationship? Would you be a devotee of 'X', or a follower of 'X'? I ask because my own relationship with deities is still developing but I'm not comfortable claiming patronage, unless it was made blindingly clear that this was the case (which it isn't). As to the unwilling acolyte , I have had a few experiences with Hekate which were completely unlooked for and I'm still not sure what was really going on there. No special knowlege though. Shame. |
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Post by deiniol on Dec 30, 2010 19:51:01 GMT -1
The one thing I would wish to point out is that in my personal observations of Deity, I do not worship. The Gods who made iron and storms did not make slaves. I connect not genuflect. As a genuine question, what do you do with regard the gods? Some of our members here simply don't really have relevant relationships with gods at all, interacting primarily with land spirits. I think this is very much spot on, and probably the ultimate origin of the concept. The more one examines it, the more one finds that Neopaganism can be a very Protestant religion |
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Post by megli on Dec 30, 2010 20:11:13 GMT -1
T I think this is very much spot on, and probably the ultimate origin of the concept. The more one examines it, the more one finds that Neopaganism can be a very Protestant religion And specifically High Anglican, quite often. |
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Post by deiniol on Dec 30, 2010 20:21:46 GMT -1
Wicca is essentially the Oxford Movement at a nudist camp.
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I do think of Epona as my matron deity (although I often use the term patron anyway even though it's technically incorrect). I think of her that way because of the depth of relationship I have with her. Although it is possibly something of a hangover from my pre-Brython background.
