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Post by dreamguardian on Nov 18, 2009 14:57:04 GMT -1
Following on from a thread I started a while back on 'Absolute Truth': caerfeddwyd.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=discussion&thread=1320&page=1The mentoring program has restarted & prompted me to develop the thread further. "When mentioning my Polytheism, I was told that I was invoking & worshiping Demons!" So, Was there a concept in prechristian times of good & bad Gods? Was there a sense of good & evil - good/bad spirits, gods or demons?? Regarding Brython today, Do we feel that there are good/evil Gods? And Do we feel it is possible to invoke demons instead of Gods? |
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Post by potia on Nov 18, 2009 15:34:51 GMT -1
Interesting one.
I think the good/evil thing may have varied from culture to culture. Hindu culture has a collection of demons for example that battle against various gods. Similalry other cultures may have had demons or evil spirits that the good or human friendly ones would protect against.
Personally I don't feel that there are good or evil gods as such but that some are more human friendly than others.
Is it possible to invoke something unfriendly and dangerous? Probably but I'm not sure if that sort of being would be called a demon.
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Post by redraven on Nov 18, 2009 20:30:05 GMT -1
So, Was there a concept in prechristian times of good & bad Gods? I suspect it was more of an appreciation of cause and effect. They may have recognized Gods associated with different aspects of life and understood they may have been a ritualized way with which to deal with / contact said deities. However, if this wasn't done correctly, then the effect of that wouldn't have been the desired outcome. Was there a sense of good & evil - good/bad spirits, gods or demons?? I suspect they would have been pragmatic enough to recognize their own failings in dealing with these deities and as such, possibly wouldn't have attributed the, predominantly later, attributes of Good and bad. Regarding Brython today, Do we feel that there are good/evil Gods? Speaking personally, no, not in the classical Christian sense. The concept of evil is only applicable when used against a framework that determines and judges the actions of others. I'm not convinced that beings in another realm would have any interest in perpetuating actions that we do too well to ourselves. And Do we feel it is possible to invoke demons instead of Gods? Depends upon your definition of Demon! RR |
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Post by Francis on Nov 18, 2009 20:40:29 GMT -1
And Do we feel it is possible to invoke demons instead of Gods? Just to make sure we're singing from the same hymn sheet here (sorry couldn't resist - so much of this thread is bound up straitjacket tight with our christian heritage), but what exactly are you meaning by "invoke"? |
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Post by dreamguardian on Nov 19, 2009 8:37:26 GMT -1
And Do we feel it is possible to invoke demons instead of Gods? Just to make sure we're singing from the same hymn sheet here (sorry couldn't resist - so much of this thread is bound up straitjacket tight with our christian heritage), but what exactly are you meaning by "invoke"? I had to press for a definition when told that I WAS invoking demons. If there's good & bad spirits/demons out there - How do we know that we're not accidently summoning up the bad ones? From the individual concerned, I was as a polytheist obviously invoking satans army of demons...!!! |
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Post by Rion on Nov 20, 2009 7:26:00 GMT -1
Perhaps it is a case of one man's gods being another man's demons?
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Post by megli on Nov 20, 2009 11:57:41 GMT -1
This is a very very complicated issue: not in terms of metaphysics, on which i cannot speak, but in terms of the history of religions. Classical religion was chock full of bogies: the greeks had the keres, gorgons, lamiae, the mormones, the furies, and lots of others: Jane Harrison's great 'Prolegomena to the Study of greek religion' is still unmatched. if you want an insight into the daemonic psychology of the ancient greeks, I couldn't recommend E R Dodds' The Greeks and the irrational highly enough, and Ruth Padel's 'In and Out of the Mind: greek images of the tragic self', both of which discuss the sense of other, malignant beings in greek thought and self envisioning. The romans had some unpleasant bogies of their own. There's no reason not to think the Celts did: I'm sure they did, like other I-E peoples, and like peoples the world over. It's interesting that this is one thing we find it hard to 'see' about ancient peoples and their polythesism, again as a legacy of our Christian background in which god = good. Most of us extend that idea to mean the gods=good. This is not at all how ancient people thought.
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Post by Lee on Nov 20, 2009 12:49:01 GMT -1
we have plenty of examples which survived in folklore in this country about mischievous or downright evil spirits and beings. i think it might be a little naieve to think that 2000 years ago people didnt go in for malevolent beings - we know the romans did for instance and the whole purpose of lupercalia was to rid the cities of them
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Post by dreamguardian on Nov 20, 2009 13:43:54 GMT -1
This is a very very complicated issue: not in terms of metaphysics, on which i cannot speak, but in terms of the history of religions. Classical religion was chock full of bogies: the greeks had the keres, gorgons, lamiae, the mormones, the furies, and lots of others: Jane Harrison's great 'Prolegomena to the Study of greek religion' is still unmatched. if you want an insight into the daemonic psychology of the ancient greeks, I couldn't recommend E R Dodds' The Greeks and the irrational highly enough, and Ruth Padel's 'In and Out of the Mind: greek images of the tragic self', both of which discuss the sense of other, malignant beings in greek thought and self envisioning. As always Megli, thank you. In fairness, the topic of discussion was regarding christianities point of view that, anything being worshipped other than the one true God must be evil. Yet, I've expressed before my reservation in some other neo-pagans 'adopting' some of our ancient Gods as their patron, that were renowned for some unpleasant actions & demands but putting a modern PC hippie kinda gloss on them. So, perhaps there maybe something in this, that potentially we could be getting 'favours' or influence from some not so good deities/spirits or 'others'. Which begs the question, How would we know? |
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Post by megli on Nov 20, 2009 20:17:27 GMT -1
Soz, i must learn to read things carefully! (says cambridge academic...  ) |
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Post by redraven on Nov 20, 2009 21:10:28 GMT -1
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I can honestly say that I have never experienced any sort of negativity when dealing with deity. I rather suspect the negative aspects are probably more a reflection upon the psychological makeup of the individual than the deity. Churchianity's negative enforcement policy tends to lead to wild speculation about the nature of other spiritual entities.
RR
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Post by dreamguardian on Nov 21, 2009 10:18:25 GMT -1
Soz, i must learn to read things carefully! (says cambridge academic... ) In fairness, the topic of discussion was regarding christianities point of view that, anything being worshipped other than the one true God must be evil. The original conversation I had whilst mentoring & first thread I postedwas about Christianity defining my polytheism as evil coz of worshipping other deities/spirits other than the OTG. Yet I widened this thread asking abour our ancestors view on good & bad deities etc. Therefore Megli, it was MY poor english  ...So I'll get detention then? |
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Post by clare on Nov 21, 2009 16:11:42 GMT -1
Listen, never mind all that. Just agree with them that you are indeed invoking DEMUNS. Let them get on with it.
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Post by Adam on Nov 21, 2009 22:33:52 GMT -1
tee hee ;D
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