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Post by Rion on Feb 25, 2010 20:03:26 GMT -1
In my varied reading, I have come across various deities which are presented as 'sea gods'; Tigernonos/Teyrnon, Noudans/Nodons/Nudd, Llŷr, and Manawyddan.
Are these all aspects of one Neptune/Poseidon-like god, or should they be understood as separate entities? Or is that the wrong question?
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Post by Lee on Feb 25, 2010 22:25:14 GMT -1
In my varied reading, I have come across various deities which are presented as 'sea gods'; Tigernonos/Teyrnon, Noudans/Nodons/Nudd, Llŷr, and Manawyddan. Tigernonos/Teyrnon/Noudans/Nodons/Nudd can all be regarded as effectivly the same sea deity. Llyr is a welsh version of Lir - a sea god and manawyddan another welsh version of a sea god. |
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Post by potia on Feb 25, 2010 22:30:20 GMT -1
Tigernonos/Teyrnon/Noudans/Nodons/Nudd can all be regarded as effectivly the same sea deity. Llyr is a welsh version of Lir - a sea god and manawyddan another welsh version of a sea god. I seem to remember a discussion about Manawyddan being misunderstood and that it would be more accurate to regard him as the deity of the Isle of Mann and not really the sea. Something from Megli perhaps? |
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Post by Adam on Feb 26, 2010 7:15:35 GMT -1
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Post by potia on Feb 26, 2010 8:38:51 GMT -1
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Post by Adam on Feb 26, 2010 9:14:13 GMT -1
:-) I had to bleep over lots of that one (strategy for books with names I can't pronounce... I just bleep over them in my head  ) |
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Post by megli on Feb 26, 2010 10:19:21 GMT -1
As that thread argued at length, Manawydan is a problem and may well be a late literary borrowing from Irish long after paganism in Britain had ended. He has nothing at all to do with the sea in welsh literature.
Dylan might be good bet (if Sarah Keefer's right and he's a kind of semi-seal-deity). His name contains the word for 'shore'.
I like the linking of Teyrnon and Nudd but there's no evidence for it beyond a) the geographical proximity of Nodons' temple at Lydney and Teyrnon's location in Gwent Is Coed, and b) the similarity between Nodons' marine attributes (that wonderful diadem!) and Teyrnon's epithet 'of the noise of the flood', which might be to do with the Severn bore. That's more than we have in other cases, but it's not a proven case by any means.
I am DEEPLY suspicious about Llyr/Ler. I am not at all convinced that the earliest Irish evidence for Ler is thinking about him as a god. 'Ler' just means 'sea' in Old Irish (one of several words) and Manannan is described as:
Manannan mac Lir, 'Manannan son of sea'.
In Irish, there is a way of naming professions by using the phrase 'son of [act or object associated with profession]'. So a student is a 'macc leind', 'a son of reading'; a cleric is a 'macc bethaid', 'a son of (Eternal) Life'; a brigand is a 'macc bais', a 'son of death'. And so on.
I strongly suspect that a 'mac lir' was an idiom for 'seaman, sailor', rather than a way of saying 'son of the God Ler', whom I think is a linguistic mirage. This is exactly how Manannan is described in Cormac's Glossary, as a very skilled seaman.
Later the word Ler was taken in this 'father's name' sense and we get stories about Ler/Lir and his family---nasty to-do involving swans, I recall---but these are all late, long long LONG after the end of Irish paganism.
And in Welsh terms, Llyr like Manawydan and Bran, is merely an 8/9th c medieval literary borrowing from Old Irish stories, not an inherited pagan god.
I should point out that this is not especially controversial in the field, although is difficult to assimilate if you're used to the Matthewses.
PS In Old Irish, the genitive form (the 'of' form) of the word was 'lir' ('of sea') but the nominative, the subject-form of the noun, was 'ler'. Therefore you should say 'Manannan son of Ler' if you want Ler to be a god, NOT 'Manannan son of Lir'. Although as I have indicated above this phrase might be better translated 'Manannan the Sailor' anyway.
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Post by deiniol on Feb 26, 2010 10:28:26 GMT -1
Manawonos Moritex  |
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Post by Rion on Feb 26, 2010 11:02:12 GMT -1
Oops sorry for asking a question that's clearly been dealt with before. Thanks for your clarifications people, especially meglipedia |
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Post by megli on Feb 26, 2010 11:07:55 GMT -1
Manawonos Moritex Don't tell me that's attested somewhere?!!! |
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Post by deiniol on Feb 26, 2010 12:52:51 GMT -1
Manawonos Moritex Don't tell me that's attested somewhere?!!! Alas not. Otherwise, I am sure, hilarity would ensue. |
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Post by megli on Feb 26, 2010 14:08:00 GMT -1
Yes, I would have to have eaten my words! Actually, there's no problem with Manannan being a pagan sea-god---it's Ler/Llyr and manawydan that are dodgy.
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