Women Druids

[siaron]

I'd like to get your opinion about this: were there women in the druidic caste? Or do you think that women performed a separate but distinct function in Celtic society?

Of course, I have my opinion, but I'd like to hear yours...

Blessings!

Siaron

[Blackbird]

I think that there are some inscriptions from Gaul that attest to female Druids, but I can't find them offhand. (I'll keep looking)

And Druidesses appear in Irish myth (eg Birog, Bodhmall), though whether or not that translates to there having been women Druids in actuality is another thing.

We do know that there were women lawyers and doctors (eg Sencha in Ireland and I'm sure there is a tombstone for a woman doctor from Gaul, again, I can't find the reference at the moment.) So if you consider that to be a Druid was to belong to a kind of intellectual caste, then they might also be contenders.

It seems to me that if women Druids had any speciality, it was in seership. There are loads of references to Gaulish seeresses giving prophecies to the Romans, even after Druidry was suppressed. It may be that the seers were able to carry on their duties even after the political power of the Druids had ended, in much the same way as the bardic traditions seem to have continued.

[siaron]

My husband the linguist points out to me that the actual word 'druid' is a feminine noun.....interesting, don't you think?

Blessings!

Siaron

[goldenhand]

That's interesting! Would that be the same for the Welsh and Irish forms of the word too? (ie Derwydd and Druidh)

I've looked in my Geiriadur Mawr, but it doesn't tell you what gender Derwydd has.

I also agree that there would have been women Druids in prehistory - and of course, there are certainly women Druids now I'm sure that in theory, there was no bar to a woman pursuing any profession she chose in Iron Age Britain - though in practice, it was probably more difficult for a woman, with all that child bearing getting in the way.

Blessings,

Angharad

[siaron]

Well,

Now I'm confused....he must have meant in the classical writings, which would have been latin. My Welsh-English Dictionary (Evans) shows Derwydd as a masculine noun.(he's quite sick right now with pneumonia, so I won't bother to ask him...I'll try when he's feeling better.)

But that does raise an interesting issue...what we get from the classical writers and how much we can trust them. There is of course the famous reference to the women at the Anglesey massacre....who were they, what role were they playing in the battle? Because in that same description the male druids seem to be doing other things, and the women were the one running back and forth along the front lines (dressed in black, tearing at their hair and wailing, waving torches).

Too back we don't have any other source material to draw from.....

Bendithion,

Siaron

[Blackbird]

Ah, well that's the rub - do we accept the information from Classical authors, or must we disregard it as overly biased. If we take the latter option, we end up with very little information on Celtic peoples at all.

I think we must accept what the Classical writers tell us, with the understanding that part of their aim was to show the Britons and Gauls in a 'barbarian' light.

That description from Tacitus is intriguing, I agree. He doesn't actually call the women 'Druids' - but then he may not have recognised them as such. It does seem that they were magic workers of some kind, but as you say, their role is unclear. I think it very possible that they were Druids.

There are a few other possibilities regarding the gender of the word 'Druid' -

a. That the classical writers were referring to Gaulish Druids, whose system of Druidry may have been different.

b. That the word was misunderstood/misheard/changed in translation by the classical writers (OK, that seems unlikely... but as they often Latinise nouns, a possibility.)

c. That the word has become male in modern Welsh, but was female in earlier forms.

But I have no way of checking up on any of these theories! Still, fun to speculate ;D

[siaron]

Here's what my 'gut' tells me...in Britain at some point in the past, there were both druids and medicine women (for lack of a better term) or wise women if you prefer. They performed different roles in the society: druids-active, in that they were trying to create outcomes (battles, weather, crop success, animal health, etc.), as well as their other known roles with the laws, etc. wheras the women were more concerned with prophecy and acting as intermediaries between this world and the other, and with healing. There were probably some events so important that it required them to work together (which is why you have this reference by Tacitus to the 'mystery' women at Anglessy). Some event (maybe the Anglessy massacre, maybe the arrival of the Christian missionaries) shook up the system.

We have heard that the druids may have 'disappeared' into the monestaries; we know that a tradition of herbalists or wise women seemed to continue on in the society, though their role/status seems to have been reduced. I was recently doing some research on Scotland and the islands, and while there is a strong tradition of druids in the Western Isles, there is none in the Orkneys. But, there is a strong tradition of wise women there, known for practicing healing arts (later, of course, they were labled witches. Kirkwall in Orkney is one of the scenes of the famous Scottish witch trials).

Again, I have no facts, no proof. Just some tantalizing circumstantial evidence and my gut.

Bendithion,

Siaron

[Blackbird]

I think gut feelings are important

I'm not surprised that there is no 'Druidic' evidence on the Orkneys - if there ever was such a thing there, it must have been superceded by the Scandinavian influences many centuries ago.

Have you read 'Healing Threads' by Mary Beith? That's an excellent book on the healing methods of the Highlands and Islands. Well worth a read.

I do think that the evidence tells us that seership was something of a speciality for women - but it was obviously practiced by men too, as was healing. My personal feeling is that any Druid, male or female could fulfill any role, though there was probably some tradition about who did what. It must have come down to the talents of the individual to some extent.

While the ancient British and Irish societies were not feminist, as we would understand it, women could certainly perform roles that we would think of as being traditionally male preserves - ie, tribal leader, doctor, lawyer, warrior etc., though in practice it was probably the exception rather than the rule.

[goldenhand]

Well, we certainly have historical evidence for women in those roles, but nothing concrete regarding Druidesses. Afaik, the seeresses are always called just that, they are not referred to as Druids. (Or does anyone have anything else on that?)

In addition, we should be careful in using mythology as evidence for women's roles. While there are lots of Druidesses in myth, that doesn't necessarily mean that there were lots in 'real life'. Looking at ancient Greece for example - there are some very powerful women in those stories, yet women in ancient Greek society were generally powerless and oppressed.

But like you both, my gut feeling is that there were women Druids, if that counts for anything. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate...

[Blackbird]

I'm sure there is an inscription somewhere...

*flips through a load of books*

Miranda Green's 'Celtic Goddesses' has some interesting bits:

"While the Insular myths present a picture of powerful and autonomous women such as Medb, this state of affairs is not reflected in the secular law texts...women's legal status is defined in the law texts in terms of their relationship to male relatives"

Which backs up what Angharad pointed out - but she goes on:

"although some eighth century Irish queens are mentioned in the Irish Annals."

So we seem to have a situation where women can take these positions, but as the exception rather than the rule? I suppose that you could also compare it with the reigns of Mary and Elizabeth I in England - which didn't reflect the general position of women in society. Or of Thatcher - who did less for women's rights than many male politicians...

That tombstone that I mentioned earlier is pictured in the book too - (p23) "inscribed tombstone of a female doctor; first century AD. Metz, France."

OK,

Looking at Peter Berresford Ellis' book 'Celtic Women' (yes, yes, I know)

He makes some dubious comments like:

"... Ausonius Decimus Magnus... had an aunt called Dryadia... Why should his aunt be called 'Druidess' so many centuries after the Romans claimed to have stamped out such a caste in Gaul? The answer simply is that she was of the Druid caste."

Which seems like a bit of a leap of logic to me!

I've searched through a few other sources, but can't find reference to that inscription... I'm sure I didn't dream it...

[siaron]

I think that queens like Boudica and Cartimandua were accepted as leaders (and warrior in Boudica's case) in their own right, even though they ursurped their husbands as sovereigns. An interesting note is that in the book "The Alphabet Versus the Goddess" by Leonard Shlain he makes a compelling argument that oral cultures had a higher regard/reverence for women and female deities and that the written word was ultimately the downfall of the ancient goddess-centered societies (he calls it the conflict between word and image). Since the Celts maintained an oral tradition quite late, it would stand to reason (based on his premise) that this might hold true in their society. It's a really interesting book, I'd recommend it.

And let's not forget the Picts: "The Picts shared much in common with their fellow Celts, such as geography, similar language, and similar art, among other things. There were some differences however, the main one being that descent for the Picts was defined in terms of the mother rather than the father ie. matrilineal rather than patrilineal. Historical records suggest that this is what led to their disappearance, or rather their assimilation by the Scots. Because of the way in which Picts handled descent, the Scots were able to gradually absorb them through marriage. After some time, it is believed, all distinction between them had become so blurred that they were essentially indistinguishable."
(http://www.tartans.com/articles/pictcivilization.html)

History is written by the victors, and the virtually all history was written by men, so we will only ever be able to speculate on this beyond the few classical references. Unless we can master time travel..... ;D

I found an interesting site when I was doing some research. It's definitely worth checking out: www.geocities.com/celticwell/

Bendition,

Siaron

[goldenhand]

Ah, but matrilineal is different to matriarchal. If you look at matrilineal societies, it doesn't necessarily translate as meaning that women have higher status in that society.

The book sounds good, I'll look out for it - and many thanks for the link!

Blessings,

Angharad

[siaron]

Still, in both Celtic and Pictish societies, you see references to women warriors...I think that is quite unique (though there was a recent discovery that the Romans had a unit that was made up of women, and also the story from a couple years back of archaeological evidence of women gladiators found in London somewhere--but in Roman culture I think it was more of a novelty vs. an everyday role for women).

I see your point about matrilineal (sp?) descent being different than a matriarchar society...but we know so little about the Picts, who is to say they weren't that as well?

Relating back to an earlier unanswered question, when I asked my husband about the feminine form of the word 'druid' he meant, it was Latin--and it also only ever appears in the plural form. Strange....

Ah, mysteries!

Bendiiton,

Siaron

[Blackbird]

Indeed - I was involved in a documentary about the gladiatrix finds

There are several Roman accounts which tell of British (and Gaulish?) women warriors - something that was evidence of extreme barbarity to them ;D There is also Scathach, the mysterious woman who taught CuChulainn his fighting arts.

I'm pretty sure the Picts weren't matriarchal - the reason we know they were matrilineal is that king-lists survive. Definitely male rulers, but passed down the female line. I'll try to find a source - it's many years since I looked at the Picts but I remember having some good books from the library.

[blackwitch]

can you tell me morea out Scathath?

bb Moira

[scathach]

How weird is that!?

here I am.

Not She herself, but one who takes her name in the hope that she can do it sufficient honour. Something to live up to.

Scathach appears in the Ulster Cycle of Irish stories, where it is told that she trained CuChulainn, who became the lover of her daughter, Uathach. Scathach was the enemy of another warrior woman, Aife, whom Cuchulainn overcame in battle.

[Blackbird]

Nice synchronicity there, Scathach ;D

I've always felt a certain... how to put it... hero worship, I suppose, towards Scathach, being a female martial arts instructor myself.

I've recently become interested in the prophecy that Scathach makes to CuChulainn. Do you have any thoughts on it? I'll post the text into the Bardic bit soon.

[sidhemaiden]

That's amazing!!!

I'd never heard of Scathach before.

L&B Lady Eleanor

[siaron]

Goldenhand said:

Ah, but matrilineal is different to matriarchal. If you look at matrilineal societies, it doesn't necessarily translate as meaning that women have higher status in that society.

The book sounds good, I'll look out for it - and many thanks for the link!

Blessings,

Angharad

I found an interesting reference on matriarchy and the Celts from "Women of the Celts" by Jean Markale:

"Traces of an earlier(pre 9th century) matriarchy (again we use the word with caution) also appear in the preference given to the wife's family concerning inheritance when the husband disappeared; above all in the old custom in Irish and Welsh literature of naming herores after their mother and not their father; King Conchobar was known as "son of Ness"; Gwyddyon and Arianrod were son and daughter of Don; Setanta-Cu Chulainn was the son of Dechtire. Definite traces of matrilineal descent were still remembered by the story-tellers.....(Celtic society) was halfway between the patriarchal type of society, which was agricultural and based on the ownership of land by the father of the family, and matriarchal societies, in which the mother, or women in general, remained the basic link in the family and a symbol of fertility."

He doesn't support that women were druids; in fact, he says there is 'no proof' of it, but that they were nevertheless sorceresses and prophetesses, which I guess supports my belief that women had a separate function when it came to religious belief/practice.

Bendithion,

Siaron