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Post by littleraven on Oct 21, 2008 16:33:23 GMT -1
A post on TDN site, wondering when we would we applying for affiliation to TDN got me thinking. Thinking should I tell them we were offered affiliation near 18months ago, and declined. ;D But the relationship of Brython to neo-Druidry is indeed an important question. We are obviously not a 'Druid' thing. Whilst we may recognise the historical Druids and their importance in our history, we aren't claiming that title. Where does that put us in relation to the neo-Druids? Personally I don't think we as a group should 'affiliate' to such neo-Druid groups as it puts us in the same ball park, and I don't think that is an accurate reflection. Are we neo-Druidic? I don't think so. What are our similarities to what they do? Are we as much a part of the Druid 'Revival' as other groups, as has been claimed elsewhere? I don't think so,as we are not a post-Iolo bunch. We have other influences. P.S. I am leaving this up on the CF Brython forum as opposed to the private forum as it may help to inform those guests in our hall whose loyalty is elsewhere.
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Post by Craig on Oct 21, 2008 16:36:56 GMT -1
While there is no need to unnecessarily alienate the membership and leaders of TDN, other than by example and commitment, I see no need for us to get into bed with them.
Seeing how they've treated a number of my friends over the last few years I have no interest in any sort of association whatsover. Lie down with dogs and you get fleas... and yes I am in a grumpy mood.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 21, 2008 16:50:36 GMT -1
Speaking as someone who has never been a member of TDN, or signed up for an Obod course, or anything else like that:
what would be gained by joining TDN? Aside from line on their website?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 17:03:27 GMT -1
From the outside it appears to me that you are still going through a formative set of stages as a group. You are talking about getting together more, exploring some practical issues around practice (shrines, for example) and exploring commonalities and differences amongst those who identify with the Brythonic 'path' whilst also rejecting the modern usage of the term druid.
So my humble suggestion is that you give yourselves a bit more time to work out what this group is, who its members are, and what you are going to do next.
On a more pragmatic note, you say you are not druids, so why would you want to join a network of people who say they are druids? And what would you hope to gain from being "affiliated" with any other group anyway? What could be gained that can't be achieved through joining in discussions on matters of interest in other places? You may not be druids, and many of you may reject the modern term, but you may still find the company of other people who may use the term to be positive. Well whilst you're hanging about and chatting be ready to explain to people what you think and do, why its important to you and all that. Be positive and, once this particular storm has passed, simply be good examples.
That's some of what I currently think I think.
paul
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 17:15:07 GMT -1
I echo Craig's grumpiness as my own relationship with TDN did not exactly end well (cue my retreat from public paganism for a year or so). Anyhoo, that aside, I see no benefit in affiliation with any other group at this stage. Stand alone on our own feet and see how we grow. I'm sure there is enough cross-over within the 2 respective communities for TDN members to know where to find us if they so desire.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 21, 2008 17:20:07 GMT -1
let's not affiliate ourselves with druid/ry groups, I'd rather be associated with heathen groups as I think we have more in common. It's time to let this little bird leave the druid nest and find it's own two wings.
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Post by Craig on Oct 21, 2008 20:50:23 GMT -1
This reminds me, LR, of the reaction when we first formed Brython. You and I both received offers of a speaking engagement [including free tickets] at Druid Camp from TDN - something I tactfully turned down.
And more recently TDN wanted to know who the potential attendees were going to be at Flag Fen.
Anyone think that somebody's worried at what we are doing and is trying to lure us back into the fold?
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Post by littleraven on Oct 21, 2008 21:49:35 GMT -1
That would be a fairly 'unanimous' then?
I agree.
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Post by littleraven on Oct 21, 2008 22:08:37 GMT -1
From the outside it appears to me that you are still going through a formative set of stages as a group. You are talking about getting together more, exploring some practical issues around practice (shrines, for example) and exploring commonalities and differences amongst those who identify with the Brythonic 'path' whilst also rejecting the modern usage of the term druid. So my humble suggestion is that you give yourselves a bit more time to work out what this group is, who its members are, and what you are going to do next. The purpose and concept of what Brython is is actually fairly well established (to us at least). What's happened is that we have come into the view (and sights) from outside that would never have happened if not for the storm that's been raised. The details like altars are the kind of thing we have always liked to discuss, a purpose of clarification, experience, analysis, sharing, etc etc. Wheere we go next was our main motivation at Flag Fen. The thing is that people like TDN claim the 'Druid' thing, and that is of interest. Of interest to see where it's going. It would be foolish to cut one self off from that. And there are plenty of good people around. But however much the various threads around the interwebby may claim to be modern Druids, there is a helluva lot of reference to ancient Druids, and a boatlaod of shite attached to that from grandiose claims to bad history. It's useful to be aware of that, and how to avoid it. Also, people who have useful and interesting opinions may be interested in our ideas, but would never know to find us if we are not 'in the scene'. So my opinion is personal membership can be useful, but group affiliation is essentially self-damaging. Guilty by Association, basically. Can't disagree with any of that. On a personal level I'm not getting involved until it's settled.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2008 22:45:55 GMT -1
I've also become very disillusioned with TDN. I didn't particularly enjoy spending the last camp hiding behind Brochfael and feeling on edge and I don't want to be part of any group where I feel I need to bring a burly friend in order to feel safe. I also feel the overt sexuality that pervades the TDN camps has become an excuse for people to act in a way that I don't feel is acceptable. So, no and no.
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Post by Midori on Oct 22, 2008 0:06:35 GMT -1
I've not attended a TDN camp and have heard things from attendees which makes me glad I haven't. I have attended a couple of OBOD camps and found the nudity thing prevalent there, yet not so 'in your face' so to speak.
I have mixed feelings about TDN in general, partly because I am nosy and would like to know more about some of their other 'departments', yet I don't feel inclined to shell out a joining fee just to find out a little more.
Cheers, Midori
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 22, 2008 2:32:07 GMT -1
I have mixed feelings about TDN in general, partly because I am nosy and would like to know more about some of their other 'departments', yet I don't feel inclined to shell out a joining fee just to find out a little more. I'm with you there. I'm suspicious of any religious organisation that you have to pay to take part in - any changing hands of money should be donations (passing around the collection plate.) I would have no hesitation donating to Brython to keep the server going, or to help with costs of a newsletter, or buying a magazine, whatever. But if I had to pay to get in then I wouldn't be here in the first place. Saying that, I'm glad some of us are members of TDN, because if they claim to speak for druids/pagans I'd like to know what it is they are actually saying.
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Post by megli on Oct 22, 2008 7:47:27 GMT -1
Yes, I left TDN under a cloud (my own fault, though I was seriously provoked) over a particular woman's article giving a barmy pseudo-etymology of a Welsh word, which was a mass of completely untrue, mad statements. The TDN hierarchy KNEW it was full of misinformation - they're not stupid - and requested a piece from me (knowing full well that I was at the time teaching Welsh and Celtic linguistics at Oxford) pointing out the errors in it. Then, once I'd written it, they refused to put it up as it stood, saying TDN was 'not a forum for academic debate'. Presumably if someone had written an article arguing that the Druidic treatment for leukaemia was a pinch of faerie-dust and a good old rub down with a unicorn horn, and then they had asked a doctor for a comment who opined that this was dangerous nonsense, then the committee would have said that TDN is not a forum for medical controversies.
I lost all respect for TDN at that point, as it became clear that they were putting up material which they KNEW was factually untrue and misleading. Can't tread on anyone's 'sacred perspective' though, can we?
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 22, 2008 8:00:21 GMT -1
Presumably if someone had written an article arguing that the Druidic treatment for leukaemia was a pinch of faerie-dust and a good old rub down with a unicorn horn, and then they had asked a doctor for a comment who opined that this was dangerous nonsense, then the committee would have said that TDN is not a forum for medical controversies. wait.. that IS the cure for leukaemia. You're just oppressing me, you're part of the patriarchal freemason conspiracy to hide the truth about unicorns.
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Post by megli on Oct 22, 2008 8:18:07 GMT -1
That was more or less exactly what was said!
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Post by Lee on Oct 22, 2008 8:23:47 GMT -1
i dont see how we can gain anythig at all from affiliation. if anything it lessens Brython and cheapens it. the whole point is that brython is about striking out on a new pathway and not holding hands with other groups to help us through it.
the publicity side of things would be good - but i can ssure you, we can get far better publicity on our own.
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Post by Adam on Oct 22, 2008 8:52:29 GMT -1
i dont see how we can gain anythig at all from affiliation. if anything it lessens Brython and cheapens it. the whole point is that brython is about striking out on a new pathway and not holding hands with other groups to help us through it. As they say "Beaten paths are for beaten men" Brython is not a neo druid group... in the immortal words of the 80's campaign "just say no" It's funny... I used to hang out on tribe (I'm genuinely not a forum junkie... my work requires me to understand trends in social networking and web2.0) and there, pagan meant wiccan... any argument would be predicated on the wiccan reade as an automatic point of reference... I've lost count of the different ways I tried to say I'm not a bloody wiccan (no insult meant to those here who are... but you can see how frustrating it must be) and had to imagine them scratching their heads "not a wiccan? but this is a pagan forum... does not compute" My point is that there is a danger of dilution by association... what appeals to me about what you guys are doing here at Brython is that you are doing it without reference to any of the neo groups and building a unique identity... keep it that way
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Post by potia on Oct 22, 2008 9:27:53 GMT -1
<gingerly sticks head above parapet> I'm a long term member of TDN as some of you will know as well as an OBOD druid graduate. I don't think that group affiliation with TDN or any other group would be beneficial for Brython but I do think maintaining a presence in other forums is important because there will be others like myself who will come to Brython with a background in OBOD and/or TDN, those seeking out a better understanding of their path.
I have chosen to take on a role within TDN - one of the new regional coordinator roles. I do this because in Scotland I see the need for someone to be a contact point for matters related to druidry. It also seemed to tie in well with my role in the PF in Scotland. I have tried in the past and continue to try and provide good quality information to those newly interested in druid related paths and while Brython does not identify itself as part of the druid movement I personally feel it is a related group, a cousin if you will.
Please believe that I give a great deal of thought to these issues but ultimately I feel I have long standing responsibilites to the wider pagan community of Scotland that I think can be best served by maintaining the relationships I have with the PF, TDN and OBOD as well as Brython.
Why am I bothering to mention some of this - simply to be open about my links in case later others felt I had concealed information and it caused problems. It may still cause problems but I stand by the responsibilities I have chosen to take on.
Blessings Potia.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2008 10:08:04 GMT -1
P.S. I am leaving this up on the CF Brython forum as opposed to the private forum as it may help to inform those guests in our hall whose loyalty is elsewhere. Uhm...may I say something? Guest whose loyalty lies elsewhere...that sounds to me a bit bellicose (is that a word?). People who are not into Brython may still be sympathetic to Brython, and may have no loyalty anywhere. I am, since a short time, an OBOD member but do not feel obliged to have any loyalty to anyone, nor do I feel obliged to be against Brython or anything. I hate we vs. they thinking. Ennys
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