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Post by Lee on Oct 24, 2008 17:19:31 GMT -1
you say that s if dogma is a bad thing. it doesnt need to be. dogma can be a shared statement of belief, something that unites us. if and when we come to commit the brython dogma onto paper/HTML, i would think it will be a dogma created by the tribe and supported by the tribe.
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Post by Lee on Oct 24, 2008 17:22:19 GMT -1
Previously Craig have said that there are members of the USA, do they need to travel to the UK to become part of Brython? for how long? no. this isnt something you can pick up whilst on holiday like a scuba diving certificate or a weekend course at Glastonbury. if you can make that connection with the landscape and the spirits that reside here then great stuff! if you do it in a week, a month or a year it doesnt matter. no you arent. it sounds like you have developed that connection. all good to me.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 17:31:31 GMT -1
here here It's a different beastie anyhow. We are tied to the land, and since every Aelwyd is in a different place, naturally they will have different gods, different sacred spaces, different ways of doing things - in essence, every grove within Brython will be a "splinter group". When we come together it will be a gathering of Brythonic 'tribes', which seems like an ancient tradition to me Obod differs in that, at a gathering, you will have pagan druids, christian druids, muslim druids, buddhist druids, eco druids, bardic druids, athiest druids... that's a fire waiting to happen imo.
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Post by aelfarh on Oct 24, 2008 19:12:23 GMT -1
you say that s if dogma is a bad thing. it doesnt need to be. dogma can be a shared statement of belief, something that unites us. if and when we come to commit the brython dogma onto paper/HTML, i would think it will be a dogma created by the tribe and supported by the tribe. That sounds fair enough to me. But I was thinking more about the proper dangers of dogma, to be so strict that can't be challenged. As an immutable truth
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Post by Lee on Oct 24, 2008 19:14:31 GMT -1
knowing the people here as i do and from the past few years of being a member here, i really dont think it would get to that stage.
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Post by aelfarh on Oct 24, 2008 20:43:46 GMT -1
I want to quote you a paragraph by Brendan Myers, that I was translating today for my website, and that could give something to this discussion.
"An enthusiasm for history and historical re-enactment can and should be a part of the revival of Druidry today. It can be loads of fun! And it can help to bring history and mythology to life, and so make the origins of our traditions real to us. Similarly, a capacity for imagination and creativity should be part of one’s path as well. Without it, we may not be able to change our lives for the better, for we may not be able to see how things might be made different than they are. Whatever Druidry we eventually settle upon, it will be shaped by our own intentions and interpretations, and so it will inevitably be different than ancient Druidry. Yet the connection to the past cannot be ignored: what we inherit from history and tradition is a large part of who and what we are today. What, then, is the solution to the problem of history? The answer is: we should revive that which will help bring out the best in us. And the Celtic tradition provides many images of greatness we can strive to embody in our lives: gods and goddesses, mythological heroes, historical figures, and so on. How much eclectic invention and borrowing should be allowed? Again, the answer is, that which will help us become the best human beings we can be. What matters here is the degree to which Celtic tradition and imagination promotes human excellence and flourishing. What matters is how the adventure of self-discovery lifts up our lives, and gives us peace, confidence, courage, and happiness. Where the tradition seems incomplete or incoherent, and where imaginative creativity seems disconnected from reality, we may always refer back to the eternal mysteries as revealed to us through honest and open perception of the world, coupled with clear thinking and right intentions.
While there is no doubt that the standards of living and the lifestyles we lead have changed incredibly since the age of the Celts, and even within each of our lifetimes, the human needs for understanding, communication, companionship, and even empowerment have not changed. To questions about human life, the solution is not more right nor wrong just because it is old or new. A revival of the spirituality of the Earth could be a healing force in the world in this life and time. Celtic spirituality today is not a retreat from the world into an illusory garden of delight where problems need not be faced. Rather, it is an affirmation of our needs in this life, and an energetic attempt to take power over them. It is a re-affirmation of the sacredness of the Land, Sea and Sky. It is a re-claiming of the sacredness of the Feminine, the Goddess, whose place in western culture has always been ambivalent, uncertain, downplayed, or even ignored. And it is a re-celebration of ourselves as participants in the on-going and never-ending creation of the world."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 21:40:56 GMT -1
An enthusiasm for history and historical re-enactment can and should be a part of the revival of Druidry today. It can be loads of fun! And it can help to bring history and mythology to life, and so make the origins of our traditions real to us. How? I don't mean to nitpick, but without access to the thoughts, beliefs and practices of our ancestors stretching back into ancient times, which we don't have, we can't hope to truly understand the origins of our traditions. We might hope to grasp the meaning, but we can only guess at the origins and even if we did know where those traditions originate from, we can never truly make them "real" in the sense they were to our ancestors.
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Post by aelfarh on Oct 24, 2008 21:47:24 GMT -1
How? I don't mean to nitpick, but without access to the thoughts, beliefs and practices of our ancestors stretching back into ancient times, which we don't have, we can't hope to truly understand the origins of our traditions. We might hope to grasp the meaning, but we can only guess at the origins and even if we did know where those traditions originate from, we can never truly make them "real" in the sense they were to our ancestors. I think is not matter of make them real in the sense they were to our ancestors, it's a matter of make them real to us, hic et nunc
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 22:22:15 GMT -1
I think is not matter of make them real in the sense they were to our ancestors, it's a matter of make them real to us, hic et nuncBut how can we make the origins of traditions real when we can only guess at those origins? We can look at the evidence to try and understand some aspects of our ancestors spiritual practice, but there's no allusion to the origins of most of our traditions that isn't based on guesswork and filling in the blanks. So, we have a choice - we can try to re-enact the past and fill in the missing links with whatever seems to fit, or we can take what we know and use that to craft a relationship with the gods that's relevant to us, honours what we do know and strive to be the missing link ourselves. The land we live in, the culture we're a part of and the knowledge we have available to work with are, in many ways, completely different to that of our ancestors. I think our practice needs to reflect that, otherwise it stagnates and we fail in our obligation to add our own knowledge to what has been handed down to us and in doing so dishonour our ancestors.
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Post by aelfarh on Oct 26, 2008 15:16:31 GMT -1
Hiyah Draighean
I think I fully agree with you. But to be fair, I have not seen any CR or Druid organization that try to recreate the iron age without adding their (our) own knowledge to the practices and connections with the spirituality and put it in context with our current culture and reality.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2008 22:59:26 GMT -1
I think I fully agree with you. But to be fair, I have not seen any CR or Druid organization that try to recreate the iron age without adding their (our) own knowledge to the practices and connections with the spirituality and put it in context with our current culture and reality. Something's always added, but there seems to be a tendency to shore up subjective interpretations by claiming a hard link with the past or to reinterpret the past to fit in with "personal truths". I think it needs to acknowledged that the gaping holes in what we do know are most often stuffed with whatever is at hand, rather than with anything that's likely to keep the draughts out. If you consider what the consequences of building a house in that fashion are likely to be, it's no wonder modern Paganism is beginning to look like the house that Jack built. What we need is a combination of knowledge and experience, not opinion and second hand information dressed up to resemble them ... and we need to make those things accessible, so that knowledge can go from those that have it to those that don't without being reinterpreted so many times that by the time it's out there it's meaningless.
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Post by daibanjo on Oct 27, 2008 1:36:58 GMT -1
I have been reading the discussions here with interest and fascination. I found the subjects very thought provoking and I will contribute my tuppence worth. But for now I'd like to reply to a point made earlier in which I have a very real interest. I'm Welsh living in California. I have never lost connection with my ancestry or my connections. It's very much a case of "You can take the boy out of Wales but you can't take Wales out of the boy." I still remember, and tell, the stories I heard as a child and I still feel the spirits of my homeland around me. My wife is an Apache. Her family originated on the San Carlos reservation near Clifton, Arizona. She was raised Catholic but became interested in my heathen ways. She embraced the Goddess and has taken a solitary pagan path. She was and is fascinated at how the traditions of the native americans have so many similarities with Wicca and Druidry. So am I. I have not yet seen it fully explored and explained how, if all this paganism is so made up, how does it have so many similarities with indigenous cultures around the world. I have a friend, David Valdiviez, who is an Apache elder. He holds prayer circles and other ceremonies in the San Gabriel valley where I live. He and I have had many discussions and I can feel his connection to this land and the spirits that abide here. Through him I have felt that connection also though I am an observer and a (Megli help me, what is the english) Ymdeithydd in this land. I try to get home every 2 to 3 years and next time I do I would really like to meet some of the Brython Aelwyd if only for a couple of pints. I hope I'm making the point that it is possible to be 5,500 miles away and still be connected and, I hope, a part of this fellowship.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 27, 2008 6:46:25 GMT -1
there we are then, from the horses' mouth (I'm not calling you a horse Dai! lol) Not only is it possible to feel the connection to Britain, it's possible to connect with the land you're in at the time too. Which is as I have long suspected - the reason many Americans don't connect with the country of their birth is because they don't want to, not because they can't. If a guest (Ymdeithydd? traveller?) in the country can connect, why not white natives? Always puzzled me, that.
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Post by daibanjo on Oct 28, 2008 0:33:57 GMT -1
It's puzzled me too Teg. I don't understand how people who have been here for generations still call themselves african americans or irish americans and everything else. When do you become an American? Not long after I came here I was asked where I was from and when I said Wales, this man said he was welsh. I asked what part of Wales and he said he wasn't sure, his people came over in the 1800's. I could tell a lot of strange stories around that subject and it might even be the subject for a thread. As for "Ymdeithydd" it means a traveller who has settled in one place for a short while before moving on. I don't know if there is an English word for such an animal. If you know one you will have increased my fluency in English
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 28, 2008 6:52:38 GMT -1
Ymdeithydd: Sojourner (temporary resident, one who resides in a place for a short time before moving to another one) Can't say CF isn't educational
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 28, 2008 9:13:40 GMT -1
As for "Ymdeithydd" it means a traveller who has settled in one place for a short while before moving on. I don't know if there is an English word for such an animal. If you know one you will have increased my fluency in English Rolling stone, gypsy or nomadic?
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Post by daibanjo on Oct 29, 2008 16:03:40 GMT -1
"Sojourner" Thank you Teg. I've never heard that word before. Very cool I'll stsrt using it from now on and sound real educated like. Thanks Arth, you put the straight forward view but those words don't quite fit. I'm here for a while until I retire back in Wales. The sentence "I am a ............... in this land" well, those words really don't fit. But Sojourner now. Damn I can talks the english gooderer and gooderer.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 29, 2008 16:05:45 GMT -1
I only know the word because it was one of Nasa's Mars probes
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Post by Francis on Oct 29, 2008 19:53:22 GMT -1
Also, I don't want to bring a downer here, but I also make a prediction, that in a year or so there will be two Brython groups, one very strict about its approach, the other more liberal. It may well be that we do split. There are some big divisions of belief here - we're going to have to look at the polytheism / all-is-one thing we've got going on subtly in a few posts at the moment, and work it to a conclusion at some point! But the thing is in the meantime we're all helping each other work through some valuable ideas. If we do split though, it won't be a problem - the community here isn't a customer base that must be held on to whatever the cost in spiritual dilution, for fear of a reduced bottom line at the end of the financial year.
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