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Post by clare on Oct 23, 2008 19:09:43 GMT -1
I think if we re-connect we will become re-enchanted. Something attracted us the the thing called druidry then we encountered all the add ons that are bright and shiny and must be bought to improve the experience. We lost our first love before it had time to develop and deepen. We became more enchanted with the bridesmaid than the bride. Some people in druidry have never lost that first love, but from my experience a lot have. To me Brython is about re-discovering why you first fell in love and building on that to have a deeper relationship. That's a beautiful way of describing it Bram. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 10:25:02 GMT -1
I think I can understand why I'm feeling confused about all of this now. I haven't fallen out of love with modern Druidry, I approach it trying to walk a balanced path of re-enchantment (which I feel this world needs) and re-connection (which I often need to feel the re-enchantment). I can understand the need for an understanding of history, mythology, lore, it's REALLY important to know where we came from. That feeds my logical understanding of Druidry. But then I have the more intuitive exploration, and this is where I feel the Gods and Ancestors reside.
It doesn't seem to matter at all how I make a connection with the Spirits of this incredibly powerful land. None have ever turned away from me in disgust when they heard me sing the Awen. None of my Ancestors, none of the Spirits of this Island that I have made contact with seem to give a hoot about the ancient authenticity of what I am doing. When I tell a story or sing a song about Blodeuwedd she doesn't seem to mind that I'm playing it on a guitar and not a Crwth or Harp. It only seems to be humans that have the problems on this level.
Ronald Hutton is credited with stating the re-enchantment thing, but I remember another of his statements that has always stayed with me. "If we go looking for purity in Druidry, all we will find is the smell of bleach, and the sound of marching jack boots". Exclusivity, dogma, rules, regulations, a 'right' way of doing a spirituality. Like I say I understand it with my logical side, but the Otherworld doesn't seem to be bothered at all.
I'd like to ask you some questions.
If the Brythonic Gods are so tightly linked to this island, do you leave them here if a Brython goes to live overseas? Can they travel? Or do you explore the Gods of the land you are now on, ie change your religion? And if you do, I'm assuming that you must also become a part of that lands tribal community, and leave your old tribe?
Which makes me wonder... Can an Asian living in this country be a Brython? Can someone living in the USA be a Brython?
I've seen it written here that there is no need to be 'nice', and that not everyone will be accepted into the membership of Brython. Is that right? Who will decide? As it grows how will it be policed? How will you stop the first 'Elements of Brython' being written by someone unknown to your group?
These are all things that modern Druidry has had to face, and I'm pretty sure that these difficulties will arise.
Also, I don't want to bring a downer here, but I also make a prediction, that in a year or so there will be two Brython groups, one very strict about its approach, the other more liberal.
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Post by littleraven on Oct 24, 2008 10:48:11 GMT -1
Thanks for taking the time to put over your view Damh. I've been lurking here for a while, trying to get my head around what is going on. I must say that most of the discussions are very interesting. Although I've found myself feeling angry about some of the anti Druid comments, I also understand that to be able to define what you are, you have to identify what you are not, so I'm trying to ignore those and get to the layers underneath. Why are you angry about the ‘anti-Druid’ comments? Is it that you feel the neo-Druid community is unfairly represented, or is it that personal beliefs are being questioned? This is an important question because you have a significant personal investment into the neo-Druid scene, from your involvement with OBOD and your own group. It could be seen that unhappiness with neo-Druidry could rebound to you significantly. Many of us have had many years experience of neo-Druids, realise that it’s not a question of outsiders looking in and making incorrect assumptions, these are often the opinions of people who have chosen to turn away from it. Those comments you are choosing to ignore are the expression of people’s unhappiness over the ways things have gone, opinions expressed in a place they are confident and comfortable enough to voice them. Choosing to ignore the comments is unwisely ignoring expressions of the problems people perceive. I've always looked to this island for my inspiration and spirituality. When I first joined the OBOD I supplemented my work with the Gwersu with books by the likes of Miranda Green and Anne Ross. I completely devoured the Mabinogion and learnt the Four Branches by heart. Although I think my favourite portrayal of the ancient Druids was found in fiction - Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles. I would say that if the word had been coined in the early 90s I would have thought myself Brythonic. That was, and continues to be, my experience of modern Druidry. So, what you saying there is that you based you opinion of what Druidry is from a work of fiction? :-) You make a statement of your background which is honest, and appreciated,can I offer a way of looking at what you say? Of course you should supplement learning from as many sources as possible, but your continued association with OBOD demonstrates a sympathy with the nature of the material, which last time I looked can easily be described as ‘eclectic’. It’s hardly ‘Brythonic’ in it’s focus. The word and concept of Brythonic *was* available in the early ‘90s, I was there. I left OBOD in 1992 because of the very reason I have just mentioned, it was too eclectic. For example, I didn’t expect to be arguing the validity of including Christian saints in what could be considered a ‘pagan’ ritual. Even as time goes on and individuals become more aware of the possibilities, if your initial interest was Brythonic why not follow that? It’s what most of us here have done. I've grown to love the modern Druid tradition as it is now, with all of its colour, flamboyance and there is certainly depth, you just might have to look harder to find it. I've worked in the OBOD office for 10 years now, and I see the positive work and results that maybe others can't see. So in that paragraph, you have basically accused everyone who doesn’t agree with OBOD et als view of Druidry as not being able to see deep enough? Sorry but yours is not exactly an unbiased viewpoint. I would expect objective views to come from people who have awareness of the subject matter but no specific personal agenda. Looking at the OBOD and other neo-Druidic boards, coupled with experience of the people around these groups, I do not see institutional depth. Plenty of individual depth but often constrained within a pre-formed framework. I’ve always stated that the OBOD course is useful for people who need a framework for their learning, but that framework is certainly not doing anything to counter the problems that can be seen. Quite simple, neo-Druidry as an institution is not taken seriously by other religions. Why is that? Although I understand the drive behind Stefan's statement, I think it a rather futile pursuit. There are currently more than 10,000 members of OBOD alone. Add to that the ADF in the USA, Order of Whiteoak and various others and that letter is not going to scratch the surface. The vast majority have no idea who he is, and even more aren't even aware of Brython, or the AC. It certainly has made no difference to my views about modern Druidry. Far better to have stated 'There are no Druids in the Brythonic Tradition', but there we are, done is done. And yet here you are, justifying your involvement with neo-Druidry. Alongside the many for a pages debating this across the internet, with many neo-Druids justifying themselves and their labelling. Scracthing the surface or not, it touched a nerve and stimulated debate. Job done IMHO. From my experience modern Druids do exist - I've seen and worked with many of them. I read in another post here that priests should be elected by their community, and that eventually Brython may well use the word Druid to describe its priests. From my experience that's pretty much what already happens. If people don't recognise a modern Druid 'priests' role, they vote with their feet. It’s not pretty much what happens, in OBOD anyone who finishes the Druid grade is a Druid. That’s in no way reflecting the level of commitment required for accurate use of the title. The self-identification of people within neo-paganism, is frankly, a crock of shit. It’s irresponsible and potentially damaging, with people who have no knowledge, training or responsibility setting themselves up as important. The ones who have the most to lose are likely the ones complain the most. At least I can look at a Catholic priest and know he earned the right to do what he does. Whether he does it well is another matter. What I'm basically saying is that I'm here for myself, not as a rep for OBOD, or as some kind of spy (just in case anyone might feel that way). What you are discussing here have been my own thoughts for many, many years, and I've worked with them within the modern Druid tradition. But now you have formed Brython. It might be worth knowing that there are a lot of modern Druids who already are, and have been doing for a long time, what you are starting here. What you have now is a place dedicated to this purpose, which is nice. If they’ve been doing it for a long time then good. Perhaps there hasn’t been anything else prior. Whatever they choose to do with it is their decision to make. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 11:18:25 GMT -1
Little Raven.
I'm not angry about anti Druid comments. I just feel it is a waste of energy, and doesn't really help Brython, or the people involved. My 'investment' in the modern Druid scene is simple. Anderida will exist for as long as people want it, same with OBOD. I'm not interested in propping up something that is keeling over. The thing is neither are.
I'm also not choosing to ignore other comments. I've been talking about things like this on message boards and email lists for so long, I just feel I've said all I needed to say elsewhere over the years. Although I'm interested in what is going on here on this board, I am simply that, interested. I'm pretty busy with other parts of my life mate. Don't take my silence personally.
You imply that because of my continued involvement with OBOD and its 'work of fiction', I'm not a Brython. Is that what you are saying LR?
If my comment about the 'depth' thing has pushed your buttons, I apologise. I was merely saying that I have found a lot of depth over the years. I have seen people cry through the love of their Gods, I have seen people moved deeply, shout with passion for the Old Ones and the Ancestors, and have heard their reply. If you haven't found that depth it might just be that modern Druidry isn't your thing (it obviously isn't). We have a saying in Anderida that if someone is determined to try Druidry, they might have to get on the wrong bus just to find out they need to be elsewhere. That doesn't mean that everyone else on the Druid bus also has to get off and follow them!
I don't think I know anyone in OBOD who states that 'Druid' is their title. Maybe a useful label to describe themselves, but not a title.
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Post by Craig on Oct 24, 2008 11:46:53 GMT -1
I'd like to ask you some questions. Okey-dokey, there is no such thing as a wrong question...  If the Brythonic Gods are so tightly linked to this island, do you leave them here if a Brython goes to live overseas? Can they travel? Or do you explore the Gods of the land you are now on, ie change your religion? And if you do, I'm assuming that you must also become a part of that lands tribal community, and leave your old tribe? I can only speak from experience. When abroad I can still 'access' my gods and ancestors, but not the spirits of my land. When in Japan, as I often have been, I have spent much time with Shinto priests and in their shrines. I have a lot of respect for them and do feel a small connection to the land they love and serve. Which makes me wonder... Can an Asian living in this country be a Brython? Can someone living in the USA be a Brython? Yes, and yes. It is more difficult for someone living outside this country, but there are members of Brython right now in the USA. I've seen it written here that there is no need to be 'nice', and that not everyone will be accepted into the membership of Brython. Really? I do believe I have always stated the inclusive nature of the tribe dependent only on the willingness to contribute to the development of the tribe (and I don't mean money). I do believe the only qualification you need for OBOD is the willingness to pay for the course. I wonder who has the moral high ground there then? As for being 'nice' that sounds like the perpetual whine I hear all across the 'pagan' world about everything having to be fair. My answer to them is that life isn't fair, get used to it or life will be a continuous disappointment. I may be a grumpy old git but I believe we can only make life fairer by hard work and sharing what we find along the way. I intend to share with others who will also share with me - my family and my tribe. Call me 'selfish' but hey, I'm just one man, not a bloody saint. It is right because there will be timewasting idiots who wish to cause dispruprion and not contribute. Unfortunately the pagan community in Britain seems to have far more than its fair share of these. I will, LR will, Blackbird will, Brochfael will, Hawkwind will, Heron will, Stefan will, Megli will, Boo will, you will - in other words the tribe will decide. As it grows how will it be policed? Policed? Are you serious? If you are then the only answer I can give is 'by consensus'. Our guides are gods, our guidelines are honour, duty and love. How will you stop the first 'Elements of Brython' being written by someone unknown to your group? We can't and we won't. We don't own the term 'brython', it is not copyrighted like OBOD is. People will know if it is from us, from the tribe, and that is all that matters. Also, I don't want to bring a downer here, but I also make a prediction, that in a year or so there will be two Brython groups, one very strict about its approach, the other more liberal. Thanks for the prediction, you've just given me an objective to prove you wrong, and I am a very stubborn man... |
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 11:49:07 GMT -1
I don't think I know anyone in OBOD who states that 'Druid' is their title. Maybe a useful label to describe themselves, but not a title. but is it the "Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids". You mean there are no druids in the order of druids? So it's just the Order of Bards and Ovates then? I think this is kind of where we split, and the crux of it. To the Obod, and neo-druids, the word druid is indeed "a useful label". We don't view it like that. Names have power, meaning and importance. Druid is a title, not a path, not a label. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 12:08:07 GMT -1
Thank you Craig. You have answered my questions, I'd like to see how others feel about these topics too, if they have time or inclination. I am serious about the idea of policing in the future. As Brython grows, it will like any other spiritual group have its own power struggles. There will be those that want it to go one way, whilst others another. Its just natural development. I know of no other group that hasn't resulted in a splinter group hiving off - sometimes peacefully, more often than not with angst involved.
To many here it seems that modern Druidry is too eclectic. To prevent this happening to Brython, surely some rules have to be in place, otherwise in 5 years time you'll be meditating, and standing in circles, because it works, and not because there is evidence that the ancient Druids included meditation in their practices. I hope you don't see these questions as time wasting. I really do see them as things to consider.
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 12:30:08 GMT -1
but policing assumes that we're not all reading off the same page. If I didn't agree with what Brython are aiming for, I wouldn't be here. Same for most of us. There is no need for a splinter group, because there are already lots of splinter groups. If Brython isn't for you, there is Obod. or Wicca. Or Christianity. Or whatever. We're not saying those things are wrong, that what they do is necessarily rubbish, just they don't feel right to us, so we are going to do what DOES feel right. And no-one said we weren't going to meditate (maybe 'contemplate' is a better word) or stand in circles. We do that already |
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 24, 2008 12:41:02 GMT -1
Hopefully Brython will as focused as much as Heathenry. Is that right Jez and Blackbird?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 15:00:15 GMT -1
Hello Damh,
The Gods with which I have personal, direct and ongoing relationships are Ancestors and Spirits of Place. Some of my Ancestors seem content to travel with me, some don't. Spirits of Place don't travel at all in my experience. If my circumstances changed and I had to move to foreign lands, I may be able to forge some kind of connection with the native Gods, but I know in every fibre of my being that connection could never compare (for me) to what I have here - my home. I know where my roots are.
Yes, if they connect with the Gods of this land.
Depends - personally, I know that if you picked me up and dumped me anywhere on the planet I would be still be Brythonic at my core. However, if a native Mexican, living in Mexico, who had never left Mexico, stumbled upon Brython on the web or something ...? No, I can't see how that works.
I agree with everything Craig said concerning the above. I believe that Brython has firm foundations that we, as a community, are able to handle whatever the future brings due to the range of personalities and experiences upon which we can collectively draw.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 15:25:35 GMT -1
Just a minor observation... Tegernacus To the Obod, and neo-druids, the word druid is indeed "a useful label". We don't view it like that.However here... www.brython.uwclub.net/Brython/Who%20we%20are.htm ... it is said.. On occasion we may often describe ourselves as 'Druids', Bards or smiths to outsiders as a convenient method of describing what we do to others. In many ways some of us are doing the same thing, it might be more about our definition of "often" as well as our working use of the word "Druid". Right, I'm getting back in my box... paul |
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Post by littleraven on Oct 24, 2008 15:36:01 GMT -1
Just a minor observation... Tegernacus To the Obod, and neo-druids, the word druid is indeed "a useful label". We don't view it like that.However here... www.brython.uwclub.net/Brython/Who%20we%20are.htm ... it is said.. On occasion we may often describe ourselves as 'Druids', Bards or smiths to outsiders as a convenient method of describing what we do to others. In many ways some of us are doing the same thing, it might be more about our definition of "often" as well as our working use of the word "Druid". Right, I'm getting back in my box... paul Well, that was posted two years ago and things progress. I can't actually get onto that account any more or it would have been removed long since. |
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 24, 2008 15:40:21 GMT -1
On occasion we may often describe ourselves as 'Druids', Bards or smiths to outsiders as a convenient method of describing what we do to others. Well spotted Paul. That's one sentence that should be deleted. I think we have come along way since the web site made. |
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 24, 2008 15:41:48 GMT -1
Great minds think a like.  |
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 24, 2008 16:04:27 GMT -1
LR, you should email uwclub and tell them to take it down. Providing you can prove who you are it shouldn't be a problem. It would be kind of confusing to leave it up there.
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Post by Blackbird on Oct 24, 2008 16:14:31 GMT -1
I've no idea about Heathenry - all I know about it comes from my contact with Jez and other Heathen friends...
However, to answer Damh's questions:
At this early stage, it's not easy to see how our idea of community will develop. Here, we are already geographically scattered, and given that we have the internet, where we live is not a barrier to participation.
I can only speak about the gods by my own experience. This is that while some of them are tightly bound to the land, others can travel. You can follow the blood-pull of ancestor-gods wherever you are, and some of the 'bigger' gods are certainly not bound into place. At one time, I would have said that a person should always honour the gods of the places they live. However, now I understand that can bring political problems - e.g. if an American of non-First Nations origin wants to get involved with Native American gods and spirits, they can be open to accusations of imperialist cultural appropriation.
However, I would say that what we are really talking about when we say 'Brythonic' is something cultural, of which the religion is just a part. So it's perfectly possible to honour any god from within your own cultural context. This is what many polytheists end up doing anyway. I've 'met' some of the Heathen gods when invited into Heathen ritual, but I could never honour them in a Heathen way. I can still only approach them from my own worldview.
Yes, because this is cultural, not 'racial'. Tribal cultures are adoptive.
As Craig rightly said, the tribe decides. It's to do with hospitality. We have obligations towards our guests, and those we adopt. But they also have obligations to us in terms of their conduct. In that way, the community polices itself. To an extent, at the moment, we have a benign dictatorship, made up of the moderators of this board, who, as recent events have shown, take counsel from the membership and are transparent about the decisions we make.
I do agree that if our numbers grew significantly, we might have to give thought to how things work, and that is something that was discussed at length before Brython was officially launched. At the moment, our community is fine, and if it ain't broke...
Re. membership: Right from the beginning, our ethos was that membership will not cost financially. But rather, members must be willing to contribute. In other words, they pay with their time. Our plan is that Brython collects good quality information, by its members, for its members, with a good amount also available to the public on CF, which will always remain the public face of Brython. That information might be in the form of forum contributions, in depth studies, creative work, experiential stuff... anything that will help us all to deepen our experience and understanding.
Bags me in the Popular People's Front of Brython ;D
Seriously, I don't see this happening. There are plenty of places offering a liberal approach, and I don't think people looking for that will be attracted to us in the first place. However, if it did happen, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. All things change, and it might be that in the future, this is a natural development. None of us can truly predict where this will lead us, and for me, this is one of the exciting things about Brython.
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Post by littleraven on Oct 24, 2008 16:26:08 GMT -1
You imply that because of my continued involvement with OBOD and its 'work of fiction', I'm not a Brython. Is that what you are saying LR? Actually, my reference to ‘work of fiction’ was in relation to the Bernard Cornwell books, relating that to OBOD is your own I’m afraid. I don't think I know anyone in OBOD who states that 'Druid' is their title. Maybe a useful label to describe themselves, but not a title. Title or label is basically arguing semantics. Druid has a very clear historical meaning and significance, what is the claim of modern ‘druidry’ on that significance? One could be cynical and argue that OBOD Druids are attached to the title/label because they've paid for it. |
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Post by aelfarh on Oct 24, 2008 16:47:13 GMT -1
Hi
Previously Craig have said that there are members of the USA, do they need to travel to the UK to become part of Brython? for how long?
I'm a Mexican, at the moment living in Mexico, I have lived in the UK also, and planning to return, for several reasons, one of them is that since I was a child I feel a strong connection with the Celtic culture, and Celtic spirits, when I travel there I feel a big connection with Britain, and a bigger one with Ireland. Why? I don't have a straight forward answer to that, I have made several theories from the reincarnation stuff through more psychological ones. When in Mexico I feel strong connection with this land, and acknowledge and respect its spirits, but I don't feel a connection with that spirits/gods, with the exception of one (that's a long story)
Am I guilty of cultural appropriation??
My point is geographical boundaries are sometimes not equivalent to spiritual boundaries.
Now, to avoid eclecticism obviously a kind of norms shall arise, specially when the group grows. How do you plan to set that and at the same time avoid to fall into a rigid dogma like the mainstream religions?
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Post by Lee on Oct 24, 2008 17:17:35 GMT -1
If the Brythonic Gods are so tightly linked to this island, do you leave them here if a Brython goes to live overseas? Can they travel? Or do you explore the Gods of the land you are now on, ie change your religion? And if you do, I'm assuming that you must also become a part of that lands tribal community, and leave your old tribe? i would persoanly honour the gods of the land i went to live in. common courtesy when on someone else's turf so to speak. i dont know if the brythonic gods travel well, if i were feeling uncharitable i would suggest that based on the books coming from across the pond and the content, that the gods have gotten a little sick on the way over. as it happens i am feeling rather charitable tonight as to the first, no problem. it about the connection to the land and gods here and now rather than where you are from. as to the second - in theory yes, though really we need experiential stuff from those over there to get an idea. there is too much pussyfooting about on the modern pagan scene, and not enough honesty. if someone is talking shit, say so or at least tell them they might like to consider X or Y. the trend of insisting its thier own personal truth has lead to a proliferation of guff and pap out there. one only has to look at the general impressions on the pagan scene regarding the fae and faeries to see how gullibility and a lack of critical faculties can get out of hand. not being 'nice' doesnt mean being nasty instead. policing is done by the community - LR has made decisions where needed and we have accepted. a lurking tosser was pointed out to Mods by 2 individuals - something was done. we are currently fine with our policing and i see no reason why that shouldnt continue. elements of Brython - might happen. if it does - lets see how they do. Brython has been about or a year or two as it is, its the things we share and want that have brought us together and up till now the bond is strengthening. recent weeks have shown that we are all heading the same direction and want to be heading that way too. i predict that in 1 year, we will still be here, stronger and more settled. |
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