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Post by Craig on Oct 22, 2008 11:24:35 GMT -1
Personally I have no problems with people with feet in different camps. If they have the energy to be in two places at once good on them [and if I'm honest I'm a bit jealous - I can barely cope with remembering why I've gone into the kitchen sometimes...].
The only time I get a little short is when one or two have taken words said here and published them on other fora to which the original speaker did not have [nor wish to have] access to.
This has happened and some people got quite upset. It's not about loyalty but respect.
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Post by littleraven on Oct 22, 2008 11:28:03 GMT -1
P.S. I am leaving this up on the CF Brython forum as opposed to the private forum as it may help to inform those guests in our hall whose loyalty is elsewhere. Uhm...may I say something? Guest whose loyalty lies elsewhere...that sounds to me a bit bellicose (is that a word?). People who are not into Brython may still be sympathetic to Brython, and may have no loyalty anywhere. I am, since a short time, an OBOD member but do not feel obliged to have any loyalty to anyone, nor do I feel obliged to be against Brython or anything. I hate we vs. they thinking. Ennys If people are sympathetic then that's great, but many people serve their own agenda above all others. Scan the various fora at the moment and the we vs. they mentality is more than evident. There have been people hiding here under pseudonyms, there still are, who simply want to harvest our discussions for their own purpose. There are people who come here simply to have a look at what the fuss is about. The point being that Brython is formed to embody a tribal conciousness, if people are going to defame us elsewhere then they will expect us to look after our own. Occasionally the best defense is to remove where possible the ammuniation they look for to attack with.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2008 12:16:46 GMT -1
Personally I have no problems with people with feet in different camps. If they have the energy to be in two places at once good on them [and if I'm honest I'm a bit jealous - I can barely cope with remembering why I've gone into the kitchen sometimes...]. The only time I get a little short is when one or two have taken words said here and published them on other fora to which the original speaker did not have [nor wish to have] access to. This has happened and some people got quite upset. It's not about loyalty but respect. Okay, I understand. But I hope you keep in mind that there is more than just two camps oppositing each other. Brython is a tribe, a group of people trying to form a group, so they may be a 'camp' indeed. But not everyone outside that camp is an enemy...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2008 9:21:34 GMT -1
I've been lurking here for a while, trying to get my head around what is going on. I must say that most of the discussions are very interesting. Although I've found myself feeling angry about some of the anti Druid comments, I also understand that to be able to define what you are, you have to identify what you are not, so I'm trying to ignore those and get to the layers underneath.
I've always looked to this island for my inspiration and spirituality. When I first joined the OBOD I supplemented my work with the Gwersu with books by the likes of Miranda Green and Anne Ross. I completely devoured the Mabinogion and learnt the Four Branches by heart. Although I think my favourite portrayal of the ancient Druids was found in fiction - Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles. I would say that if the word had been coined in the early 90s I would have thought myself Brythonic. That was, and continues to be, my experience of modern Druidry.
I've grown to love the modern Druid tradition as it is now, with all of its colour, flamboyance and there is certainly depth, you just might have to look harder to find it. I've worked in the OBOD office for 10 years now, and I see the positive work and results that maybe others can't see.
Although I understand the drive behind Stefan's statement, I think it a rather futile pursuit. There are currently more than 10,000 members of OBOD alone. Add to that the ADF in the USA, Order of Whiteoak and various others and that letter is not going to scratch the surface. The vast majority have no idea who he is, and even more aren't even aware of Brython, or the AC. It certainly has made no difference to my views about modern Druidry. Far better to have stated 'There are no Druids in the Brythonic Tradition', but there we are, done is done.
From my experience modern Druids do exist - I've seen and worked with many of them. I read in another post here that priests should be elected by their community, and that eventually Brython may well use the word Druid to describe its priests. From my experience that's pretty much what already happens. If people don't recognise a modern Druid 'priests' role, they vote with their feet.
What I'm basically saying is that I'm here for myself, not as a rep for OBOD, or as some kind of spy (just in case anyone might feel that way). What you are discussing here have been my own thoughts for many, many years, and I've worked with them within the modern Druid tradition. But now you have formed Brython. It might be worth knowing that there are a lot of modern Druids who already are, and have been doing for a long time, what you are starting here. What you have now is a place dedicated to this purpose, which is nice.
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Post by Craig on Oct 23, 2008 11:23:29 GMT -1
Okay, I understand. But I hope you keep in mind that there is more than just two camps oppositing each other. Brython is a tribe, a group of people trying to form a group, so they may be a 'camp' indeed. But not everyone outside that camp is an enemy... Never said they were Ennys , nor do I believe it to be so.
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 23, 2008 11:35:36 GMT -1
Although I understand the drive behind Stefan's statement, I think it a rather futile pursuit. There are currently more than 10,000 members of OBOD alone. Add to that the ADF in the USA, Order of Whiteoak and various others and that letter is not going to scratch the surface. The vast majority have no idea who he is, and even more aren't even aware of Brython, or the AC. It certainly has made no difference to my views about modern Druidry. Far better to have stated 'There are no Druids in the Brythonic Tradition', but there we are, done is done. Yes i agree it is a futile pursuit, but it got people talking about why they are called druid. Ironically I'm even more confused to what a druid is after being involved in the two threads on the OBOD forum. Stefan couldn't state that there are no druids in the brythonic tradition as he is not representing us only AC.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2008 11:44:43 GMT -1
So do people here think there are Druids within the Brython tradition?
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Post by Midori on Oct 23, 2008 11:50:54 GMT -1
Hi Damh, I don't think we have been 'anti- Druid' per se, rather dismissive of the more extreme claimants to the title. As the Druid served a community, which are hard to find nowadays, in this non-tribal 21st Century, some of us are wondering about the relevance of the position of the Druid as a Priest, Lawgiver and Advisor to Kings in his ancient form. I understand about the rankings in OBOD, yet I didn't find the Bardic course filled the hole in my need for knowledge, also I found it geared towards the Song and poetry side (as is Traditional), and expensive, but I haven't a Bardic bone in my body, and I sing like a raven with laryngitis! I'm not knocking OBOD, just saying that it doesn't suit me. My personal problem is the cross-pollination with Wicca, which goes back the Ross Nichols and Gardner and their collaboration. As I was originally Wiccan, when I came to Druidry, I found many more similarities than differences, when I was looking for more insight into the Ancient Druids (which I still haven't found). Having watched the Summer Solstice on TV since I was little, in glorious black and white! (the BBC News always made a bow in that direction), and I was always fascinated by them and anything to do with Stonehenge, where my family always stopped for a picnic on the way to our holiday in Cornwall. I was also steeped in the Arthurian legends and we holidayed close to Tintagel, so I didn't have a lot of options! I don't have a lot of interest in God or Goddess, My loyalty lies with Mother Earth, Father Sun, Sister Moon, Spirits of Place and Ancestors, and my ritual is stripped to the bone. This is why Brython suits me. Cheers, Midori
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Post by Adam on Oct 23, 2008 11:51:53 GMT -1
So do people here think there are Druids within the Brython tradition? I think the point was that Stefan does not speak for, nor claim to speak for, Caer Feddwyd and Brython, though there appears to be a lot of cross sympathy (I say appears as I do not know Stefan and the Albion Conclave at all). But for what it is worth, my 2p worth is that there is I do not recognise anyone who would function in a capacity that I would recognise as Druid... it's one of the things that drew me to Caer Feddwyd. My interpretation is that Brython does not necessarily discard the term altogether, but if it was ever introduced it would be in the context of a reconnected spirituality (to borrow Teg's term) rather than a re-enchantment one (to borrow Hutton's), i.e., rooted in and meeting the needs of an existing pagan tradition (one built from a reconnected community of lay pagans) rather than used as the basis for a new one
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Post by Craig on Oct 23, 2008 12:00:05 GMT -1
Hi Damh, Although I understand the drive behind Stefan's statement, I think it a rather futile pursuit. OK, I think everyone needs to consider a little context here. Stefan's statement was originally only released on the Albion Conclave's closed study forum. I brought it here to be discussed and have not placed it anywhere else. I brought it here because I knew it would get serious consideration by people many of whom know Stefan and the journey he has been on this last year or two. I didn't spread it anywhere else because I knew it would be taken out of context - others did that. I am willing to shoulder the respionsibility for the vilification of Stefan by the vile and the stupid on this - it was not his fault. The vast majority have no idea who he is, and even more aren't even aware of Brython, or the AC. It certainly has made no difference to my views about modern Druidry. Far better to have stated 'There are no Druids in the Brythonic Tradition', but there we are, done is done. I'm not sure that you are getting the point. As I see it the view expressed by Stefan, and echoed by many here, is that the 'modern druid tradition' has lost its way. The claim of many to the title of 'druid' is utterly meaningless when you consider who the druids actually were and what they did. It is bit like me calling myself a Roman Catholic Priest because I've been baptised and confirmed in the Mother Church, can mumble the Hail Mary and the Apostles' and Nicean Creeds, and have done a few catholic theology courses. We are not so much abandoning the term druid as making the point that it is alright to be a lay person. Not everyone should or could, realistically, aspire to priesthood. Yet many druid orgnaizations and authors seem to be saying this in both their published words and public actions. This is why Brython are concentrating on building a tribe - a collection of people with a wide range of skills and contributions to make, and that will be valued. From my experience modern Druids do exist - I've seen and worked with many of them. I read in another post here that priests should be elected by their community, and that eventually Brython may well use the word Druid to describe its priests. From my experience that's pretty much what already happens. If people don't recognise a modern Druid 'priests' role, they vote with their feet. And this is where we differ. I haven't. I see a lot of people, some of them hard-working and well-meaning, but more who are neither, self-defining themselves as 'druids'. But with even a light comparison to the druid ancestors they claim to revere and descend from, they are not druids and possibly never will be. I've seen the various fudges about 'we are modern druids' who take their tradition from the druid revivial in the 18th and 19th centuries. Yet most of those who say that haven't a clue about the christian and 'freemason' character of the early years of this modern tradition, nor the frankly fraudulent/fictional nature of much of the 'druid' material from that period. I think it is about time the druid community stepped back and took a mature and thoughful look at what they actually are, where their traditon is leading them, and what their gods and ancestors would wish them to become. Stefan's statement is a challenge and we are beginning to know a lot of people much better by the responses they are giving to it. What I'm basically saying is that I'm here for myself, not as a rep for OBOD, or as some kind of spy (just in case anyone might feel that way). I never thought that you were Damh. You're a great bard but you'd never make it through Espionage 101 As I have said many times here our vision for Brython is that it be inclusive to all that would contribute to its development, including you. As you can see it is also a growing community that is willing to take its lumps...
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 23, 2008 12:04:05 GMT -1
I think one would need to work out what they are. Am I a Druid or a Brython? I see nothing wrong with a druid following a brython path. For me the best label I can describe myself to is a brython on a brython path.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2008 12:27:46 GMT -1
Thanks for the responses I'd like to answer in a bit more detail, but I'm off out now. But I will say that I got Stefan's statement directly from an email from him. Speak soon!
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Post by dancarpenter on Oct 23, 2008 12:32:03 GMT -1
I can relate to points on both sides of the argument, but I still think my point of view largely coincides with Damh's.
At the heart of it, I'm beginning to see, is this distinction between re-enchantment and re-connection, which I think I need to get my head around a bit better. Can someone please start a thread to define the two terms and the difference between them? Or should I start one?!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2008 12:39:56 GMT -1
Craig said....Stefan's statement was originally only released on the Albion Conclave's closed study forum. I brought it here to be discussed and have not placed it anywhere else....... I didn't spread it anywhere else because I knew it would be taken out of context - others did that.
Just to be clear, Stefan’s statement was posted elsewhere (the OBOD forum) by me with his knowledge and full consent. He e-mailed the statement to me on 14th October. I replied asking if I could post it up in places for discussion, he replied to that saying “Yes, put it on as many sites as possible....”
the discussion it has generated has been interesting. It has been very informed and considered in places, and has reinforced my previously luke warm feelings of the term Druid.
groovy
paul
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Post by dancarpenter on Oct 23, 2008 13:43:07 GMT -1
It has been very informed and considered in places, and has reinforced my previously luke warm feelings of the term Druid. Is that moderate extremism or extreme moderatism? What's the superlative for 'luke warm'? ;D
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Post by arth_frown on Oct 23, 2008 14:25:31 GMT -1
the discussion it has generated has been interesting. It has been very informed and considered in places, and has reinforced my previously luke warm feelings of the term Druid. And weird thing is talking to a atheist has reinforced my polytheistism, strange eh? Maybe it makes us try harder?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2008 14:28:11 GMT -1
Hmm... trying harder makes me softer.... this could go on for months!
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Post by Tegernacus on Oct 23, 2008 16:18:11 GMT -1
At the heart of it, I'm beginning to see, is this distinction between re-enchantment and re-connection, which I think I need to get my head around a bit better. Can someone please start a thread to define the two terms and the difference between them? Or should I start one?! yeah, worth a topic of its own. Speaking for myself, I see it like this: Re-enchantment: Inspired by and identifying with misty old Avalon/Albion. Dressing up like Gandalf. Any resemblence to ancient druidry, or indeed ancient paganism, is purely incidental and largely irrelevant to most of the people who argue for it. Re-connection: throwing away neo-druidry, and starting again from scratch. Like Stukely and Iolo never happened. Returning to the source.
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Post by bram on Oct 23, 2008 16:34:57 GMT -1
I think if we re-connect we will become re-enchanted. Something attracted us the the thing called druidry then we encountered all the add ons that are bright and shiny and must be bought to improve the experience. We lost our first love before it had time to develop and deepen. We became more enchanted with the bridesmaid than the bride. Some people in druidry have never lost that first love, but from my experience a lot have. To me Brython is about re-discovering why you first fell in love and building on that to have a deeper relationship.
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